A320 into the French Alps

[wink]

Early CVR reading reveals that one pilot was locked out of the cockpit. He knocks ever louder and there is no response from in the cockpit.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/26/world/europe/germanwings-airbus-crash.html?_r=0

In the US the FAA mandates that when one pilot leaves one other crew member takes his place, It is usually a flight attendant, but can be a jumpseat pilot, or third pilot in a long haul augmented crew (I am looking at webmaster). It isn't out of concern for the other pilot flying the plane into the ground, but so he doesn't have to get out of the seat to open the door. While we could get the door open from the seat on the MD 80 we couldn't look through the peep hole to positively ID who wants in, another requirement post 9/11. On the A320 you can't even get the door open without leaving the seat which leave no one at the controls. I can't imagine that their airline procedures, if not EASA regs, don't specify a similar procedure.

 

[wink]

So now the French prosecuter is calling it a deliberate act by the co pilot and set to change his investigation to homicide. We don't operate this way in the USA for very good safety culture reasons that most of us are well aware of. More than that, in his news conference the prosecuter is making several absolute declarative statements about the operation of the A320 and other aviation matters he is not qualified to make. And just 48 hours after the accident before all the facts are in. Where are the AW safety officers to bitch slap that guy?

 

[AllYourBass]

So know the French prosecuter is calling it a deliberate act by the co pilot and set to chage his investvation to homicide. We don't operate this way in the USA for very good safety culture reasons that most of us are well aware of. More than that, in his news conference the prosecuter is making several absolute declarative statements about the operation of the A320 and other aviation matters he is not qualified to make. And just 48 hours after the accident before all the facts are in. Where are the AW safety officers to bitch slap that guy?

In a less impactful story, this would just be some really bad legal work empowered by shoddy journalism. But regarding a plane crash killing 150 people, it blew me away this morning to read such firm declarations about "the horrible deed" the co-pilot supposedly committed.

 

[Pags]

Very interesting year or so with regards to air mishaps with several prominent "who knows?" mishaps and lots of finger pointing at members of the flight crew.

 

[707guy]

I thought the representations the French prosecutor was making to the media were uncalled for. Too much grandstanding in the media right now. Super early in the investigation.

 

[wlawr005]

A German Airbus crashes in France, and the French government is quick to find and lay blame on anything or anyone besides the aircraft.

And you're surprised by this?

 

[Flash]

So know the French prosecuter is calling it a deliberate act by the co pilot and set to chage his investvation to homicide. We don't operate this way in the USA for very good safety culture reasons that most of us are well aware of. More than that, in his news conference the prosecuter is making several absolute declarative statements about the operation of the A320 and other aviation matters he is not qualified to make. And just 48 hours after the accident before all the facts are in. Where are the AW safety officers to bitch slap that guy?

I assume you know the French and other countries have different approach to the law enforcement part of crash investigations than we do in the US.

A German Airbus crashes in France, and the French government is quick to find and lay blame on anything or anyone besides the aircraft.

And you're surprised by this?

Really? You do know Airbus is co-owned by the French, Germans and Spaniards among others. Plus, this is an independent prosecutor who is doing most of the 'accusing' and not the crash investigators so not exactly the 'government'.

 

[wlawr005]

Really? You do know Airbus is co-owned by the French, Germans and Spaniards among others.

Yep. That was kinda my point.

 

[wink]

I assume you know the French and other countries have different approach to the law enforcement part of crash investigations than we do in the US.

Yes I do. I am rather familiar. And their approach leads to putting pilots and air traffic controllers in jail for mistakes. As I alluded to above, it is not in the best interests of safety. I wasn't pointing out that this is a rouge prosecutor or this is some how an unusual process for them. It is very normal. Not good. IMHO.

 

[Flash]

Yes I do. I am rather familiar. And their approach leads to putting pilots and air traffic controllers in jail for mistakes. As I alluded to above, it is not in the best interests of safety. I wasn't pointing out that this is a rouge prosecutor or this is some how an unusual process for them. It is very normal. Not good. IMHO.

I agree wholeheartedly, the same friction exists even in the Navy with the JAGMAN and the safety investigation. Unfortunately there they don't seem to have that same 'wall' between the two we do, from what little I know the French BEA (their NTSB equivalent) are apparently real pros but the prosecutors go for blood.

Yep. That was kinda my point.

Think less nationalism and more personal ambition in this case, the 'government' in this case includes both the prosecutor and the safety investigators whose paths don't always parallel each other as they more often do in this country.

 

[wink]

I agree wholeheartedly, the same friction exists even in the Navy with the JAGMAN and the safety investigation. Unfortunately there they don't seem to have that same 'wall' between the two we do, from what little I know the French BEA (their NTSB equivalent) are apparently real pros but the prosecutors go for blood.

This made me think. Yes, there is a formal wall between the JAGMAN and mishap board in the Navy. It is similar in law enforcement for use of force investigations such as shootings. But come to think of it, I don't know of any formal statutory or formal procedural "wall" between the NTSB/FAA and law enforcement investigations. It works that way in practice, but I am not sure where the guidance comes from. Just from anecdotal evidence, it seems as though the commercial trucking industry don't always get the benefit of the same approach as commercial aviation.

 

[Brett327]

Question for the airline folks regarding the 2 man rule in the cockpit (I.E., pilot #1 leaves to use head, so FA goes in the cockpit with pilot #2 until pilot #1 returns). Is that an FAA rule or is it by individual airline policy, because I've heard conflicting claims in the media on this matter.

 

[wink]

Question for the airline folks regarding the 2 man rule in the cockpit (I.E., pilot #1 leaves to use head, so FA goes in the cockpit with pilot #2 until pilot #1 returns). Is that an FAA rule or is it by individual airline policy, because I've heard conflicting claims in the media on this matter.

It is a faa thing since 9/11 because you now can't open the door from the outside. Someone in the cockpit must visually ID the person and open from inside. A pilot in his seat can't do that.

 

[rotorhead1871]

a real sick dude......too bad for the passengers....shows one thing...you cant stop a motivated pilot....

 

[jcj]

I was at the FAA in OKC doing my AME basic seminar when this went down. In fact, we met with the FAA's main psychiatry consultant the same day this happened. They were inundated with media calls, etc - especially since they guy still had a valid U.S. medical from when he was training in AZ.