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A feeling of disappointment...

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
Huh? I never once saw a new JO come onboard and have an authority issue because he wasn't qualified.
Maybe just a matter of different communities, different cultures. Maybe you're far removed from it. As far as the enlisted crew on a sub is concerned nub JOs are a waste of oxygen just like nub Sailors, only they are pissed that said nub JO gets his own rack and they're hot racking as an E6. As such they tend to view DHs with respect for someone doing a tough job and nub JOs as spoiled brats not having yet earned the priviledges given to them. Yea they'll give you the proper courtesies but try to change a process in the division after only 3 months onboard without saying "eng wants us to..." and you'll have a big uphill battle. You pin on the warfare device and people treat you different, plus by then you've developed a good feel for what your DH/XO/CO wants.
 

Steve Wilkins

Teaching pigs to dance, one pig at a time.
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Maybe just a matter of different communities, different cultures. Maybe you're far removed from it. As far as the enlisted crew on a sub is concerned nub JOs are a waste of oxygen just like nub Sailors, only they are pissed that said nub JO gets his own rack and they're hot racking as an E6. As such they tend to view DHs with respect for someone doing a tough job and nub JOs as spoiled brats not having yet earned the priviledges given to them. Yea they'll give you the proper courtesies but try to change a process in the division after only 3 months onboard without saying "eng wants us to..." and you'll have a big uphill battle. You pin on the warfare device and people treat you different, plus by then you've developed a good feel for what your DH/XO/CO wants.
Sounds like you're speaking more to influence than authority. And that's not limited to the military. If someone uses "Eng wants to..." or "the CEO said we need to start...", that's a sure sign or poor leadership. And then again, trying to change a process so quickly when brand new to the game is also an indication of poor leadership, depending on the person's overall experience and maturity level. But maybe that was just a bad example. There's no doubt that it takes more than just the authority inherent in the position to get things done. That's not what I'm talking about here. It goes like this and it's pretty simple. Authority --> Responsibility --> Accountability. Leadership, influence, trust, respect, etc come in time and don't necessarily coincide with watch or warfare qualifications. Sometimes it happens sooner, and sometimes it just never happens.
 

LET73

Well-Known Member
Everyone knows that new ensigns don't know anything. That's not a knock on new ensigns, just a fact of life. In some communities, the new guys work on a warfare pin that serves as am instant visual representation of the fact that they know the important stuff. In my community (intel), the pin hasn't taken on that kind of meaning yet, and it was incumbent on new ensigns to prove that they were willing and able to learn things, and that they could listen to their petty officers. Same thing, in some ways, just not the emphasis on the pin. Learn stuff, don't make the same mistake twice, respect your enlisted guys... you'll do fine, and get all the necessary quals along the way.
 

xj220

Will fly for food.
pilot
Contributor
As for a direct leadership and relationship with the enlisted, in P-3s you have an entire crew of Os and Es requiring you to work together. When you become an Aircraft Commander and Mission Commander, you have a huge amount of responsibility on your shoulders to get the mission done and get everyone home safe. That's a lot harder than I can begin to describe and there's times where you have to rally the crew to complete that extra bit of mission tasking after you've already been out there for 8+ hrs and the sun is just coming up. Your aircraft feels very small when you're out there in the middle of the ocean, hours away from any safe landing strip. At that point it's only you, your crew, your aircraft and training. That's where the real fun begins.
 

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
Sounds like you're speaking more to influence than authority.
I think you're splitting hairs here. It doesn't matter what you want to call it -- guys aren't going to keep doing things the way you want them done the minute you walk away because they think you're a silly nub.

Agree the "DH wants this..." is poor leadership, but when you show up to a boat with very little training and the culture is "hehe everyone knows Ensigns are clueless" yet they're expected to lead a division, there's little legroom to do it any other way.

Had a discussion with a gunny gone Navy officer and he absolutely hated how most CPOs he encountered acted like USN rank structure goes O1 < O2 < E7 < O3 < E8/E9 < O4+. Can't say I disagree because I saw a Chief respond to a guy who showed up with me "hah, that's cute...you tried to give me an order and you don't have fish." He was dead serious.

And this reflects in the way enlisted Sailors prioritize things. If you tell someone to do something out of necessity while standing duty that contradicts what a CPO said, even if you are correct, the sailor is likely to prioritize what the CPO said. I mostly ran into this when the COB would tell the nukes something stupid out of his lane because like most forward enlisted guys, he had little idea of what happened aft of the watertight door. It was interesting because me, being only in the USN, didn't notice the stuff that he noticed CPOs doing that completely undermines JOs authority. Like anything else in enlisted culture, the "stupid Ensigns, don't listen to them" mentality comes from the Chiefs.

This is one aspect where aviation really does it right -- they actually show up to their first command with a skillset that is useful toward the mission of the USN. Gives a lot more credibility to the guy.
And then again, trying to change a process so quickly when brand new to the game is also an indication of poor leadership, depending on the person's overall experience and maturity level.
I disagree here. There are some things that are obvious when they are jacked up. When I showed up to my boat, the division I had didn't plan maintenance. The guy writing the 'schedule' would just compact everything onto Monday. It was a shit-show and made everyone work extra long to scramble to get things done because they didn't know what they were actually doing that day until 1000. The CPO was a geobachelor and was in no rush to have his division finish work in a timely manner, plus he thought it was beneath his paygrade to intervene.

It was fairly obvious to see that was screwed up, but trying to change that stupid process as the new Ensign on the block was damn near impossible. By the time I got qualified I had moved on and some other Ensign had to deal with the immovable object.
 

helolumpy

Apprentice School Principal
pilot
Contributor
When you become an Aircraft Commander and Mission Commander, you have a huge amount of responsibility on your shoulders to get the mission done and get everyone home safe.

You have to know where to cash the Per Diem Checks, what to do when the oven catches on fire and where the nearest divert is if you run out of coffee.... lots of responsibility!
 

xj220

Will fly for food.
pilot
Contributor
You have to know where to cash the Per Diem Checks, what to do when the oven catches on fire and where the nearest divert is if you run out of coffee.... lots of responsibility!


Ha, I'm sorry it's not as easy as just hovering to figure out what's going on, some of us actually move forward.;)
 

wink

War Hoover NFO.
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
niner61,
The vast majority of those bitching sailors you heard about, assuming they were not just jerking around the mids, will very likely sing a different tune if they stick around long enough to learn something about the big picture and mature a good bit. Not many former sailors complain about their leadership like you have had reported. The view changes with experience, seniority and maturity. And it is no different for officers. Late in my career I became a senior staff officer for a 4 star. Made a big impression on me.
 

exNavyOffRec

Well-Known Member
My guys did not believe our officers did nothing, they saw them standing 5x10 or 5x15 while the enlisted were standing 5x15 or 5x25, if they were looking for the DIVO the response they normally rec'd was "he is on watch" or "he is reviewing tagouts in the office". They also saw the DIVO staying at work when they went home.

If a Chief talks to his division going "the LT wants" there is an issue, or if the LT or Chief go "the DH wants/the PA wants" that is also an issue, it should be "We are going to do this...." no matter what issues me and the DIVO had, when we talked to the division we were aligned, whether I agreed or not with the decision, the guys should not ever see a division between the leadership.
 

RedFive

Well-Known Member
pilot
None
Contributor
I am told of MIDN from the Academy or other ROTC units not holding themselves in a professional manner.

If falling asleep or listening to their ipod during a brief falls under this category, then yes.
 

azguy

Well-Known Member
None
Can't say I disagree because I saw a Chief respond to a guy who showed up with me "hah, that's cute...you tried to give me an order and you don't have fish." He was dead serious.

Wow - I've met some crazy Chiefs, but that's outrageous. Sub/surface differences aside, I hope your friend dealt with that appropriately...however that is on a sub. Every time a JO "takes it" from a Chief like that it just encourages the behavior. I hope that was an isolated incident on that boat -- I'm all for Chief bashing when warranted -- but the vast majority of the ones I know are totally professional guys who are working hard to bring up the next generation.

The idea that SWOs hold the cornerstone of leadership in the Navy is bullshit.

No doubt man, we're all naval officers here, we (SWOs) just get it earlier....I mean we can be ship COs as a LT! At the end of the day, you're an officer first and a [fillintheblank] second. Look at the O-4 numbers, if you can't lead people, you're naval career will likely be short lived.
 

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
Wow - I've met some crazy Chiefs, but that's outrageous. Sub/surface differences aside, I hope your friend dealt with that appropriately...however that is on a sub. Every time a JO "takes it" from a Chief like that it just encourages the behavior. I hope that was an isolated incident on that boat -- I'm all for Chief bashing when warranted -- but the vast majority of the ones I know are totally professional guys who are working hard to bring up the next generation.
What could he have done? What 'consequence' can an unqualified Ensign really inflict on a Chief for saying something like that? He gave him a look and a sarcastic retort, but beyond that what is he supposed to do to not 'take it?'

No, it wasn't an isolated incident of overt disrespect from CPOs even toward qualified JOs, and really came to a boiling point at times.

A DH I served with poignantly said "I'd rather suck dick in prison than be an unqualified ensign on a submarine again."
 

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
What could he have done? What 'consequence' can an unqualified Ensign really inflict on a Chief for saying something like that? He gave him a look and a sarcastic retort, but beyond that what is he supposed to do to not 'take it?'

Pull him aside (I'd argue publicly if the comment was made publicly). Counsel him. Put it on paper. If the Ensign has no back up, that's the far greater travesty, and one we may be identifying with some Black Shoe commands.

For all the bitching that is done about Chiefs and how they can sometimes run wild, this is a perfect example of how they get that way and an excellent example of when to quash it.
 

exNavyOffRec

Well-Known Member
What could he have done? What 'consequence' can an unqualified Ensign really inflict on a Chief for saying something like that? He gave him a look and a sarcastic retort, but beyond that what is he supposed to do to not 'take it?'

No, it wasn't an isolated incident of overt disrespect from CPOs even toward qualified JOs, and really came to a boiling point at times.

A DH I served with poignantly said "I'd rather suck dick in prison than be an unqualified ensign on a submarine again."

The CPO's should have known better, that is unacceptable!

If the CPO had said what he did and gave the new Ensign a pat on the shoulder with a look "welcome to the boat, lets get you settled in" that would be a bit different. I have given unqualified JO's some ribbing from time to time but it was clear joking, not derogatory, of course the funny thing about unqualified JO's is that they eventually turn into QUALIFIED JO's!

On your DH's comment, being unqualified sucks, but it doesn't suck so much I would want to do the sucking he is talking about!!
 
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