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A decision to make

Python

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
If @chipotlehater69's dream is to fly in the Navy, he'd be passing up a golden opportunity that won't present itself again.

This right here. I understand the huge advantages of getting on with a major ASAP. However, like I said in the retention thread, I would do it all over again and not change anything. If his dream is to fly gray Navy airplanes, which is once in a lifetime, I’d recommend he pursue that every time (knowing full well the problems that drive people, including myself, to leave).

FFS, we have a thread full of people who served in the navy telling him to just go airlines, and he still wants to chase the dream. That is telling. Now, his schemes with USERRA leave a lot to be desired, but that’s another story.
 

HAL Pilot

Well-Known Member
None
Contributor
This right here. I understand the huge advantages of getting on with a major ASAP. However, like I said in the retention thread, I would do it all over again and not change anything. If his dream is to fly gray Navy airplanes, which is once in a lifetime, I’d recommend he pursue that every time (knowing full well the problems that drive people, including, to leave).

FFS, we have a thread full of people who served in the navy telling him to just go airlines, and he still wants to chase the dream. That is telling. Now, his schemes with USERRA leave a lot to be desired, but that’s another story.
It's obviously not his "dream" because he asked. If it's his dream, he would not be worrying about The Show.

He wants his cake and to eat it too. He could get close with The Show / Guard option but not his current scheming.
 
It's obviously not his "dream" because he asked. If it's his dream, he would not be worrying about The Show.

He wants his cake and to eat it too. He could get close with The Show / Guard option but not his current scheming.

F
Fuck, am I really reading this post? I can't believe my eyes. @chipotlehater69, you're not listening to a lot of wise, older aviators who are giving you the right advice. Every time you've posted and your resolve to join the Navy seemingly increased, my heart sank just a little bit more. These guys are trying to save you from yourself. Fucking wake up and listen to them.


You didn't try hard enough bro. My squadron is hiring both winged military pilots AND straight civilians like you. Not only that, but the Air Force's new pilot training system will basically allow you to bypass the majority of flight school (much to the dismay of many of us, but that's another discussion). As a commercial pilot, they'll send you to a very, very abbreviated flight school, you'll get your wings, and then you'll go on to learn your final platform. You'll also be permanently assigned to your specific Guard/Reserve squadron and never have to move if you don't want to. Or you can commute. Do you know how many people would kill for that?



No. No you're NOT protected. USERRA maxes out at FIVE YEARS. You're going to owe the Navy two years for flight school and eight years after winging. United will NOT be obligated to hold your position. Now, it's possible they could hold it out of the kindness of their hearts, but the law does not require them to do anything for you beyond FIVE YEARS. When guys drop military leave of absence at Delta, the company will literally call the squadron to confirm it....for just a handful of days or weeks. These companies don't like USERRA, they're not going to bend over backwards to help you keep your dream job. Source: I invoke USERRA several times per month, I know how to play it and how it works. I've read the law and you should too. Cliff notes from DOL attached.

Bottom line, if you want to press-to-test this, by all means go for it. Because I also need that slot at United. The last three pages here are guys trying to do you a solid. But we can't fix stupid. If you do wake up, PM me and I'll send you my squadron's hiring ad.

I found this on the Department of Labor website talking about one of the exceptions to the 5 year rule was initial contracts. I applied for the Navy while on furlough. While it may have been a dream of mine as a kid it clearly isn't now or I wouldn't be asking strangers on the internet for advice for it. As Hal put it I am trying to have the cake and eat it too. If I plan on going to the airlines after my ten, I might as well do it now and get the better seniority and pay. I'll poke around with the ANG more as I do miss the military and would like to continue to serve. I never flew military, was just an enlisted sucker who bought the ole "its easier to get a flight slot from the inside". Lastly, I really do appreciate the advice from everyone who has experienced the paths presented to me.
 

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RedFive

Well-Known Member
pilot
None
Contributor
§4312. Reemployment rights of persons who serve in the uniformed services
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/USCODE-2017-title38/html/USCODE-2017-title38-partIII-chap43.htm
(a) Subject to subsections (b), (c), and (d) and to section 4304, any person whose absence from a position of employment is necessitated by reason of service in the uniformed services shall be entitled to the reemployment rights and benefits and other employment benefits of this chapter if—
(1) the person (or an appropriate officer of the uniformed service in which such service is performed) has given advance written or verbal notice of such service to such person's employer;​
(2) the cumulative length of the absence and of all previous absences from a position of employment with that employer by reason of service in the uniformed services does not exceed five years; and​
(3) except as provided in subsection (f), the person reports to, or submits an application for reemployment to, such employer in accordance with the provisions of subsection (e).​
(b) No notice is required under subsection (a)(1) if the giving of such notice is precluded by military necessity or, under all of the relevant circumstances, the giving of such notice is otherwise impossible or unreasonable. A determination of military necessity for the purposes of this subsection shall be made pursuant to regulations prescribed by the Secretary of Defense and shall not be subject to judicial review.
(c) Subsection (a) shall apply to a person who is absent from a position of employment by reason of service in the uniformed services if such person's cumulative period of service in the uniformed services, with respect to the employer relationship for which a person seeks reemployment, does not exceed five years, except that any such period of service shall not include any service—
(1) that is required, beyond five years, to complete an initial period of obligated service;
(2) during which such person was unable to obtain orders releasing such person from a period of service in the uniformed services before the expiration of such five-year period and such inability was through no fault of such person;

I stand corrected. You get to have your cake and eat it too. ESGR has good resources for you here:

https://www.esgr.mil/USERRA/USERRA-for-Service-Members

And USERRA experts you can talk to here (bottom of page):

https://www.esgr.mil/USERRA/What-is-USERRA

Well, it's a dangerous game, but it looks like you have a shot. Let us know how it goes.

giphy.gif
 

MGoBrew11

Well-Known Member
pilot
Final thought: Planning on just serving your MSR and getting out probably isn't the best mindset with which to begin a career in naval aviation. Not intended as a jab, just food for your own self-reflection.
I disagree with just this part. This was my mindset going in and I know a lot of people that share it. I switched to being a “career” guy in my fleet tour and then back to MSR and out on my production tour.

OP, there is nothing wrong with just signing up for/and planning for 10 years of really cool flying and then bouncing to the civilian side for more money.
 

HAL Pilot

Well-Known Member
None
Contributor
Except how many actually get to separate at their MSR? What if your stuck going pass MSR for any reason? Your initial obligation is then done and you are still on active duty past your initial period of obligate service.

Also, what is your initial period of obligated service? You're not obligated to the 8 years until you finish flight school and get winged?. I think your initial obligation is the prewinging obligation that goes with your commission, not the additional obligation that goes with flight training obligation. When I was commissioned, it was 4 years obligation when accepting the commission with a new commitment upon winging.

I don't think this scheme works and if I was going to attempted it, I get a lawyer who specializes in USERRA cases.

There are plenty of people who leave jobs for military flight training. I think this scheme would be common knowledge if it was legitimate.
 

MGoBrew11

Well-Known Member
pilot
I agree with you the USERRA scheme is stupid. Either go airlines now or go Navy and try for airlines later. Even if (big if) USERRA scheme is legal, strikes me as slimy/dishonest.

All I’m saying is there is nothing wrong with the attitude of serving just for your initial commitment. And plenty of people get out at MSR no problem. You’re correct, it’s wings + 8.
 
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Thought I would give a quick update to the community. I lucked out with COVID pushing back the Navy OCS class dates so I was now slated for OCS next year. Training for my new airline is going great and the quality of life is a hell of a lot better then the regionals. A few guys in my class are in the ANG and strongly encouraged me to poke my head in there like a few guys in this thread. Once I finish my type ride I'm gonna start studying for the AFOQT and the TBAS and start submitting applications to various units. I'm still keeping the Navy in my back pocket. I don't want to limit my options. Hope everyone's been good.
 
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