A decision to make

[chipotlehater69]

First, let me start this off by saying I know in the end this is my decision alone. I'm simply looking for outside perspectives for others who have traveled the road.

I got news last week I was selected for a SNA slot, shipping out January 2022. I am currently a regional First Officer accepted into United's aviate program. Projections show I can be at United by March 2022 but I'm not holding my breath. Regardless, I'll probably end up at a mainline quite early before most, and seniority is everything. 10 years is a lot of seniority to give up to fly Navy but I'm weighing my options and was hoping for some insight from those who went Navy then Commercial.

1. How many hours did you get to fly?
2. Did most people get the aircraft they wanted out of training?
3. As you progressed in rank, I know flying slows down. Did this affect getting hired by a mainline? Did you have to go to a regional?
4. What would you do in my position?

Thanks for your time.

 

[Python]

First, let me start this off by saying I know in the end this is my decision alone. I'm simply looking for outside perspectives for others who have traveled the road.

I got news last week I was selected for a SNA slot, shipping out January 2022. I am currently a regional First Officer accepted into United's aviate program. Projections show I can be at United by March 2022 but I'm not holding my breath. Regardless, I'll probably end up at a mainline quite early before most, and seniority is everything. 10 years is a lot of seniority to give up to fly Navy but I'm weighing my options and was hoping for some insight from those who went Navy then Commercial.

1. How many hours did you get to fly?
2. Did most people get the aircraft they wanted out of training?
3. As you progressed in rank, I know flying slows down. Did this affect getting hired by a mainline? Did you have to go to a regional?
4. What would you do in my position?

Thanks for your time.

1. It depends on what you fly.

2. Those with high grades, generally yes. Everybody else, it was a mixed bag. Those with prior professional flying experience tend to get high grades, but the small few that can’t adjust to the Navy’s flying program do not (most of those cases are attitude related and not performance).

3. It depends how long you wait to get out and which aircraft you fly. Some communities it’s possible to stay in the cockpit for several consecutive tours. I left at the end of my minimum commitment and went straight to mainline.

4. I wanted to fly Navy jets, so that is what I would do in your position. However, I am not you. Only you know what’s important to you.

I know the answers are vague and unspecific, but the questions are very broad and there’s simply so much nuance involved in answering them. Could you provide some more information? Did you apply to OCS because you thought Covid would have you on the street for years?

 

[Griz882]

I seriously mean all of these as neutrals, but boil it down to basics...

Money vs. Adventure

Service vs. Employment

Decide what you want more than the other. Looking back, ten years isn't that long, but then again I have never worked for an airline so I get that senority is a big deal.

When you are 75 do you want to say "I was an airline pilot." or "I was a naval aviator."...or both?

 

[HAL Pilot]

Go to United and apply for a Air National Guard pilot slot.

I'd believe the March 2022 expectation for flow through to United. They need pilots badly.

Seniority is everything. In 10 years who knows what major hiring will be or what the upgrade opportunities will be. But based on today, in 10myears you will be a major airline a Captain with one hell of an income and quality of life. If the airlines hit a down turn, you will have the seniority to relatively unscathed.

If you go military, you could possible never see a major cockpit. I got hired in July 2001. I know military guys who were just applying around that time that due to 9/11 and the economy for the next few years that did not get hired into a major for another 10 to 12 years. Many so late in their flying life that they will never see Captain.

50% of Navy flying is helos. There is no guarantee that you will get the aircraft you want and a lot more people want jets then there are jet slots available. If you go helos, chances are you will not get hired straight to a mainline when you get out. If there is hiring, you'll be headed back to a regional.

Flying is just a small part of being a Navy pilot. The "officer" administrative duties will take up a huge portion of your time.

In 10 years, you will get a 3000 hours max if you do a training command shore tour after your operational squadron. If not, then 1500 or so. There is also a really good chance that your final tour in the Navy before getting out will be a non-flying one.

It's probably closer to 12 years than 10 years if you get jets. That is because the 8 year commitment starts at winging and the jet pipeline takes longer. Then there is usually a minimum tour length on your last set of orders that takes you past your commitment.

 

[taxi1]

So question for the airliners...

If he delays his Navy start date and gets hired by United, then goes in the Navy shortly thereafter, does his clock start ticking for holding his place at United? So if bails from the Navy for some reason prior to timing out?

Concur with the Air Guard approach if you can get a slot.

 

[Griz882]

I like the Air Guard approach. I had not considered that. Also, the input from actual airline people is valuable.

 

[Python]

I went the jet route and I went an average speed through flight school. I was very slow rolled through the rag (nearly two years!) but that’s after wings. Still was 10.5 years total in the navy until I got out.

Non-flying, “disassociated” tours, are more of a thing in the rotary and maritime communities. In jets you’ll likely fly continuously through your minimum commitment, and if you stay for one more tour past that, it’s likely also to be flying.

Hal makes an excellent point that you need to consider that you are doing non-flying things quite a bit in the Navy, which is a stark contrast from the airline world. That is a worth considering. But the type of flying you do in the Navy cannot be matched. That’s where Griz makes an excellent point about service vs employment and money vs adventure.

The Guard option above is an excellent idea too. Just remember that lots of people have that idea and there are finite opportunities. So if you do go that path make sure you are as competitive as can be, which it sounds like you are because you were selected for SNA.

 

[HAL Pilot]

So question for the airliners...

If he delays his Navy start date and gets hired by United, then goes in the Navy shortly thereafter, does his clock start ticking for holding his place at United? So if bails from the Navy for some reason prior to timing out?

Concur with the Air Guard approach if you can get a slot.

I don't know the length of time an employer has to hold a job for a military member and I'm not sure if an initial enlistment for active duty counts. USERRA has an initial enlistment requirement of less than 5 years. If you are signing up for SNA, is the initial enlistment period less than 5 years? Or is it 8 from winging?

But otherwise it depends on the airline's pilot contract. Most keep the seniority counter going for pilots on military leave.

 

[mad dog]

To the OP…stay at United, flow to mainline and do the Air Guard…says the Navy rotorhead > CFI > regionals > mainline dude.

 

[chipotlehater69]

Thanks for all the insightful advice. I had tried Air National Guard up and down the west coast but all of them said that they wanted prior military pilots or that there was at least a dozen ahead of me. So a plan I thought was after my 10 I go pick up with a reserve or guard unit to continue military flying. However, Hal brings up a good point with the volatile nature of the airline industry. I've met old heads who simply didn't have the timing and the most they'll get in is the regional. But I just feel deep down I'll always wonder what could have been if I don't go. I have a lot to consider for such a decision and appreciate all the points everyone made.

 

[Griz882]

Thanks for all the insightful advice. I had tried Air National Guard up and down the west coast but all of them said that they wanted prior military pilots or that there was at least a dozen ahead of me. So a plan I thought was after my 10 I go pick up with a reserve or guard unit to continue military flying. However, Hal brings up a good point with the volatile nature of the airline industry. I've met old heads who simply didn't have the timing and the most they'll get in is the regional. But I just feel deep down I'll always wonder what could have been if I don't go. I have a lot to consider for such a decision and appreciate all the points everyone made.

Keep in mind that you would probably get picked up rather easily for an Army Guard helicopter slot. I think it would be fun to fly something really different during my drill weekends! Equally, I think @HAL Pilot really hit the nail on the head. Military flying is changing and might not be what you imagine. You are in a really good place so you might want to stay there.

 

[Flash]

I don't know the length of time an employer has to hold a job for a military member and I'm not sure if an initial enlistment for active duty counts. USERRA has an initial enlistment requirement of less than 5 years. If you are signing up for SNA, is the initial enlistment period less than 5 years? Or is it 8 from winging?

The USERRA folks I've heard brief on it and the few folks I know who were close to or over 5 years talked said that beyond 5 years you are largely on your own when it comes to legal protections on employment WRT the reserves, which frankly is pretty reasonable, and whatever employment decisions beyond that are between you and your employer.

The only realistic route to protect your job while doing military training is to go the ANG route, which would keep you in that 5 year window in all but rare cases. On a related note, the USAF does have a new program where they take experienced pilots and put them through a shortened pilot training program for 'big wing' aircraft. It includes ANG and reserve folks, might be something worth looking at.

 

[SlickAg]

First, let me start this off by saying I know in the end this is my decision alone. I'm simply looking for outside perspectives for others who have traveled the road.

I got news last week I was selected for a SNA slot, shipping out January 2022. I am currently a regional First Officer accepted into United's aviate program. Projections show I can be at United by March 2022 but I'm not holding my breath. Regardless, I'll probably end up at a mainline quite early before most, and seniority is everything. 10 years is a lot of seniority to give up to fly Navy but I'm weighing my options and was hoping for some insight from those who went Navy then Commercial.

1. How many hours did you get to fly?
2. Did most people get the aircraft they wanted out of training?
3. As you progressed in rank, I know flying slows down. Did this affect getting hired by a mainline? Did you have to go to a regional?
4. What would you do in my position?

Thanks for your time.

My dude, stay the course. ANG or AFR. You’ll be so much better off. Get to the mainline ASAP.

 

[Purdue]

To the OP…stay at United, flow to mainline and do the Air Guard…says the Navy rotorhead > CFI > regionals > mainline dude.

This sentiment is seconded by myself, a Navy Rotorhead guy who is at the Regionals and hoping to flow/hire to mainline soon.

If you join the Navy to fly, plan on it as your career. Don't go to the Navy with a career goal of being an airline pilot. Seniority is too valuable, and the Navy is a minimum 10 year gig with the current pilot-time-commitments (most likely 12+ years for most guys). I had 12 years in the Navy and left with about 1350 hours total. You aren't gonna be a "high-time competitive guy" coming out of the Navy, especially if you get rotors.

Go to the airlines now. If nothing else, you'll make several million more bucks in your career than if you went into the MilTree.

 

[insanebikerboy]

USERRA only applies to reservists, so if he went active duty I’m about 99% sure that United would have no obligation to keep him on their books.