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418 Officers Gone; SWO Retention; Attrites Gone

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twidget

Deskaholic
Three big articles from Navy Times this week that affect JOs and Officer Candidates.

"Navy Boots 418 Officers - First Big RIF Since End of Drawdown"

"...includes officers who couldn't complete warfare training, have not attained or lost their warfare qualifications, or did not obtain or maintain security clearances or required professional certifications."

"Fail Flight School? You're Out - Even ROTC, Academy Grads."
"With retention continuing at near-record levels, the Navy has been involuntarily separating officers who wash out of flight school since earlier this year."

"Detailers ready to prove Navy career’s value to surface warfare officers."

"Although the fiscal 2003 continuation rate for SWOs is 31.5 percent — up from 27 percent from last year — detailers still are aggressively courting junior officers, going so far as to visit ships and fleet concentration areas and stand side-by-side with civilian headhunters to show how the two options measure up. They need to do it, officials say, because the economy shows signs of improving."

Sorry, you have to buy the mag, or subscribe online to get the full articles.

www.navytimes.com
 

cricechex

Active Member
At least it doesn't say that the Navy is forcing "good" people out. Either perform, or go away! That sounds fine to me. Just don't tell me that the Navy is cutting pilot slots! Then I might start crying.

cricechex
AME2STA2NA
 

twidget

Deskaholic
I don't think that everyone that attrites from a school is a dirtbag, not saying you do either. Just thought I'd point out the importance of doing everything you can to keep your spot, cuz otherwise it's over.

There was a guy with 10 years enlisted experience who NPQ'd during flight training due to catching meningitis, he has since recovered fully. He requested to redesignate, but everyone was full, so he's looking for a job now. Can you imagine that? Bust your ass for 10 years to do your job and earn a degree so you can serve in as an officer, then BAM! See-ya. Not even a kiss on the cheek on the way out the door.
 

spsiratt

24 April OCS
It would suck to get the boot after succeeding with so much. At least they should have a decent looking resume.
 

HueyHornet75

Registered User
pilot
shoot, if i were the NPQ with 10 years exp, i'd see if i could get back enlisted, make chief and live the high life.
 

robv182

Gotta have the Nutz
None
Sorry charlie, they said that even with 13 I could not go back enlisted or go LDO. Just a little extra incentive I guess.
 

beebop25

Registered User
How and why did the USN allow itself to develope such a large officer surplus? What will be the effect on the morale of the remaining officers?
 

frogggystyle

Registered User
There was a guy with 10 years enlisted experience who NPQ'd during flight training due to catching meningitis, he has since recovered fully. He requested to redesignate, but everyone was full, so he's looking for a job now. Can you imagine that? Bust your ass for 10 years to do your job and earn a degree so you can serve in as an officer, then BAM! See-ya. Not even a kiss on the cheek on the way out the door.

Hi. That's me. I wrote a letter to Navy Times about 4 weeks ago about this issue. Two weeks ago, Vivienne Hines, a Times writer, called me and got my info. The article came out this last week in Navy Times. Here it is:


Fail flight school? You’re out — even ROTC, academy grads

By Vivienne Heines Times staff writer

CORPUS CHRISTI, Texas — With retention continuing at near-record levels, the Navy has been involuntarily separating officers who wash out of flight school since earlier this year.

But up until Dec. 1, only officers commissioned at Officer Candidate School have been affected.

Beginning immediately, Naval Academy and Naval Reserve Officer Training Corps graduates can be axed if they can’t make it through flight training.

“Almost all the communities are full, so there’s not really a place for these people to go,” said Lt. Rob Lyon, spokesman for Naval Air Training Command. The Training Command oversees five training air stations where more than 1,600 aviators each year receive their wings of gold.

During fiscal 2003, 131 student pilots were cut from the training program; another 161 were disqualified from the navigator training program, according to the Navy.

In the past, many of these officers would have been transferred to other communities. But with more officers choosing to make the Navy a career than in the past, there are fewer openings in other communities to fill with aviation washouts.

The overall officer loss rate for 2003 was 7.12 percent, down from 11.11 percent in 1999, according to Cmdr. John Kirby, spokesman for the Chief of Naval Personnel.

“The ongoing war on terrorism may imbue service members with a patriotic call to serve,” Kirby said. “Patriotism, combined with a sluggish economy, is most likely responsible for today’s higher retention. We anticipate an eventual change in the economy will occur and result in a return to historical loss rates.”

Aviator retention, measured across the Defense Department, is at 48.73 percent for this fiscal year, 6.3 percentage points above last year’s level. Aviator retention has been high in recent years, officials have said, as jobs have dwindled in commercial aviation, a traditional job source for former military pilots.

“We are pleased whenever retention increases; however, we monitor this behavior very closely, realizing that fluctuations in the economy can quickly affect retention behavior,” Kirby said.

End of a 12-year career

Ensign Heath Alvarez, 31, a student flight officer in Pensacola, Fla., was surprised and devastated by the policy.

With 10 years as an enlisted man, and two as an officer, he contracted meningitis in August 2002 while in flight school. Although he since has recovered, the illness resulted in his being reclassified “not physically qualified” — NPQ — for the flight program.

But instead of being allowed to continue his career in some other capacity — Alvarez requested redesignation to supply, medical service corps or public affairs — he will be discharged by June 2004.

“I want to stay in the Navy,” Alvarez said. “There’s nothing else I want to do except serve my country in a military role. This is my calling in life.”

Alvarez said he worked his way through college to become an officer. “I sacrificed a lot to get to this position, and the Navy is pulling the rug out from under me. There’s a lot of other things I could do in the Navy that I know I’m qualified to do. There’s no reason to kick us out.”

Alvarez said the policy should allow for exceptions “for those of us who have shown dedication to the Navy and never quit.”

Like Alvarez, Ensign Patrick Griffin, 33, became an officer and went to flight school after an enlisted career. He had almost completed flight training to be a helicopter pilot when he was cut for low grades. He requested a waiver, but it was denied in October.

“There’s a lot of different skills that the prior enlisted guys have brought in that would still be beneficial to the Navy,” he said. “They’re going to lose out on a lot of talent and leadership.”

Stable attrition rates

Officials say it’s not the attrition rates that have changed — those rates have stayed the same in recent years. Overall attrition for Navy and Marine Corps student pilots in training is about 15 percent..

In the past, students who washed out from jets could look to another pipeline to continue in naval aviation, perhaps turning to maritime or helicopters if they did well in primary training.

Other students could request a transfer to another community. Among the most commonly requested transfers were to intelligence, human resources, information professional and public affairs, Kirby said.

Lyon added that officers also could request a transfer to another military service.

“A number of them have taken that option,” Lyon said.

Academy and ROTC grads were protected from such a fate for most of the past year. But not anymore. Regardless of their accession source, Kirby said, officers applying for lateral transfers need to be qualified for the communities to which they apply.

“The Navy retains the authority to waive active minimum service requirements to meet budgetary and force size requirements.”


As for this...

At least it doesn't say that the Navy is forcing "good" people out. Either perform, or go away!

Sorry, I'll call bullcrap on this right now. The Navy *IS* cutting good people. You would not believe how many people are being released from active duty because they were NPQ'd from flight for BS reasons...like having acid reflux or having TMJ.

Aviation has the most stringent physical restrictions of any field. What disqualifies you for flight will probably be OK in some other field...like Public Affairs or Supply.

There are many people that can serve in the Navy in some other field besides aviation. But instead of holding off new OCS people from coming in for another 6-12 months and giving their billets to those who have already made it through (which would cost the government nothign but paperwork), they are just throwing away people who have already made it through...people they have already spent many thousands of dollars on.

This included Academy grads, ROTC grads, and, yes, prior-service people that busted their ass to become naval offciers. Many GOOD people are being affected by this.

I was, fortunately, redesignated into the Supply Corps this last week. I was saved. Thank god I busted my ass as an Enlisted and had a strong enough package to get picked up so that I can serve my last 8 years so I can retire.

There are many hundreds more out there who want to stay in, who are perfectly capable of doing some other job but that are being forced out by this policy. It can happen to you too, so don't go knocking people that fall under it.
 

Stephen

Registered User
Hey Crirechex, I know everyone here is entitled to their opinion, but from what your post implied you made it seem that only "bad" officers are getting the boot. There are a lot of good officers out there who worked their asses off to get their commision. And sacrificed a whole lot and put their families through a whole lot to earn the title of naval officers. And by the way there are still a lot of "bad" officers who are'nt getting the boot.

And before you start making statements remeber the same thing can happen to you. And if I took your post out of context please forgive me. But I know a lot of people who that policy affects, myself included. And poeple who worked their way through the ranks to get where they are.

V/R LTJG HALL
 

version2point0

Registered User
so the people who are being tossed are people who didnt qualify for the areas to which they want redesignation, or is yours just an exception to the rule? i mean, if someone was grasping at straws to stay in the navy and asking for stuff they didnt qualify for, like... say... nuke-subs, then obviously the navy will drop them because they didnt qualify. but as long as you have the qualifications, like... say... all 6's and 7's, an OAR of the high 60's, a good enlisted service record, and you want SWO if you failed out of aviation, they will keep you right?

-v2.0
 

Stephen

Registered User
There was a time in the Navy if you were NPQ'd or attrited from your initial training pipeline, you were sent out into the fleet undesignated or 1305. Generally you were sent out to a carrier, until you mangage to get picked up for another community.

And you had to be at your new command for a year before you could reapply. The Navy wants to see how well you perform in the fleet, before you get another shot I guess and to let us see what else we may want to do. But ultimately a lot depends on timing and the needs of the particular community you are applying for. Say for instance Intel may only need LT billets to fill their requirements, if you're an ENS at the time of your application you may have to keep re-applying until there needs change or look at another community. And we were told that the last board did'nt even look at the Genav packets.

One buddy of mine applied to crypto 4 times before finally getting picked up. So a lot of factors are playing in. And basically now the Navy is trying to trim back and save money.
Especially with this Surge Readiness Deplyment.
Which makes sense, why float around in the gulf for six months on a carrier chasing wind. When you can be homeported training and prepared to go on call at momments notice, take care of the job and go home once the work is done.

So when you get to flight school stay focused, it won't be easy, but if you bear down on it keep God first you'll make all the right decsions.

V/R LTJG Hall
 

beebop25

Registered User
If you go to the July 2003 USNI.com website there is a interesting article written by a naval officer who served aboard the USS Ingraham FFG-61 as its operations officer. In the article he tells of the situation aboard this particular frigate. The ship to be considered properly manned must have 18 officers. But due to the large number of new Ensigns the ship has 28 officers this does not include 6 officers in the aviation detachment of 4 new offcers who also had orders this ship. This will put officer manning for one frigate 38. I believe when these ships where first designed in the 1970's the plan was to have a wardroom of just 12 officers not including the officers assigned to the aviation detachment.
 

goplay234

Hummer NFO
None
Listen. It's plain and simple. If for some reason you get shafted, you are out. It sucks. I know it. I was talking to a bunch of guys in API and we all are scared to death of it. But read the article again. The rate of failure is 15%. That isn't that high. If you study your ass off and NAMI doesn't hit you, you will be fine. For the people who are medically NPQ'd, that is aweful and what the Navy is doing is aweful but it makes good business sense. Why have a ship of 38 officers when 18 can do the job just as well? It's a waste of money. It's a cold hard decision the Navy has made and if you want to work in this field. You better get used to it. Something will happen to you in your career that will seem unfair or biased and you will just have to suck it up. I don't mean to piss anyone off so if I do, I apologize. However, until the Navy decides it needs more people, we are just going to have to grin and bear it. Personally, it makes me want to work even harder. I refuse to go home because I failed.
 
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