CWJones411
IRR
That makes sense, but I just feel like the academy shouldn't have to resort to tactics like that.
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The Return of the Fleming
- Thread starter Gonzo08
- Start date
That makes sense, but I just feel like the academy shouldn't have to resort to tactics like that.
Even Harvard has to recruit and sell itself to get the best applicants.
bigwill2876
New Member
Harvard recruits nationally and specifically for ATHLETIC high schoolers in a SPECIFIC sport and gives them PREFERENTIAL admission standards from the usual applicant. As do ALL the Ivy League schools.
A further fact, Harvard has the most intercollegiate athletic teams in NCAA. Those teams don't rely on magically people showing up at their office doors, THEY RECRUIT.
Schools like MIT, Cal Tech, RPI also RECRUIT but not only for athletes, but scholars as well...
A further fact, Harvard has the most intercollegiate athletic teams in NCAA. Those teams don't rely on magically people showing up at their office doors, THEY RECRUIT.
Schools like MIT, Cal Tech, RPI also RECRUIT but not only for athletes, but scholars as well...
That's not even a close comparison. The schools recruit for excellence in sports the way they recruit for excellence in sciences, arts, or any other endeavor. They understand that not all excellence is measured academically, and that sports carry many non-tangible lessons (a study of the effects of Title IX indicated that female student-athletes were far more successful in the workplace than their bookish peers). And in the same vein that the Navy expects engineering students to have lower GPA's than basketweavers, they may be understanding of a marginally lower GPA for an athlete with other commitments.
The anecdote of Captain Neal, who was recruited for the track team and suffered academically through the Academy, is a fine example. He turned out to be a great leader, and despite his weak academics he was shepherded through not for his athletic prowess but because the staff saw something in him.
Where it gets you in trouble is valuing the kid's contribution to the team ahead of the individual's merits as a person, and that's nowhere more clear than the ethics violations that have been allowed to slide. The Ivies have little staked on the success of their athletics programs and have little incentive to keep or admit a student solely for their athletic excellence. That unfortunately doesn't seem to be true of the Academy.
The anecdote of Captain Neal, who was recruited for the track team and suffered academically through the Academy, is a fine example. He turned out to be a great leader, and despite his weak academics he was shepherded through not for his athletic prowess but because the staff saw something in him.
Where it gets you in trouble is valuing the kid's contribution to the team ahead of the individual's merits as a person, and that's nowhere more clear than the ethics violations that have been allowed to slide. The Ivies have little staked on the success of their athletics programs and have little incentive to keep or admit a student solely for their athletic excellence. That unfortunately doesn't seem to be true of the Academy.
The Ivies, the Academy and The Navy are looking for The Well Rounded Individual. They recognize that not all smarts come from books and that just GPA is not an indicator of future success. The proverbial "jack of all trades." Unfortunately, I think this is being lost a bit due to the nature of a lot of activities these days. Back in the day, my old man went to a state school and played varsity football, was active in a fraternity, bartended and was in Army ROTC. At a lot of large schools these days a schedule like that would be impossible. Varsity Athletics alone takes up far too much time at the college level to allow for all the other stuff. Even at the high school level, a competitive high school sports program takes up far too much time to allow for the individual to do much else. The nature of sports and other activities these days is breeding one trick ponies because these programs won't allow the time for other activities. I focused on sports in my examples, but there are plenty of other examples of this. How many NROTC Mids do you know that play a varsity sport?
bigwill2876
New Member
Having been recruited/admission accepted by The Ivies, The Service Acadamies, and the usual Div 1A powers I can tell you that there is NO difference in the amount of recruiting done or the 'incentive' to have a successful program. These coaches and their staffs get paid a nice penny and none of them want to go back to selling insurance or teaching PE in high school and coaching on the side.
I agree that today it is hard to do more than one sport in high school, but having lettered in 3 sports (foots, hoops, bases) for 4 years and then the same for 2 years at a post-grad, I say it can be done, took lots of time, but done.
University level playing multiple sports is another matter, overlapping schedules, demanding Head Coaches and their Assistants, multiple strength & conditioning sessions both in and out of season (please attend the "fourth quarter" sessions on J. Martin field at 0430 off season for the varsity football team), leaves almost no time and more important ENERGY for the one sport much less two and studying to be eligible (which is all the HC/Assist cares about).
I doubt we will see another Pete Dawkins, my idol as a high schooler, (see his .com site for motivation) come along anywhere much less a Service Academy.
Unless Fleming sits on the Honor Boards I doubt if he has acess to the full and complete story about any supposed ethical violation, with any Midshipman athlete or not.
I agree that today it is hard to do more than one sport in high school, but having lettered in 3 sports (foots, hoops, bases) for 4 years and then the same for 2 years at a post-grad, I say it can be done, took lots of time, but done.
University level playing multiple sports is another matter, overlapping schedules, demanding Head Coaches and their Assistants, multiple strength & conditioning sessions both in and out of season (please attend the "fourth quarter" sessions on J. Martin field at 0430 off season for the varsity football team), leaves almost no time and more important ENERGY for the one sport much less two and studying to be eligible (which is all the HC/Assist cares about).
I doubt we will see another Pete Dawkins, my idol as a high schooler, (see his .com site for motivation) come along anywhere much less a Service Academy.
Unless Fleming sits on the Honor Boards I doubt if he has acess to the full and complete story about any supposed ethical violation, with any Midshipman athlete or not.
I'm pretty sure there is at least some difference between the "incentive" to have a successful program at the Div 1A powers versus the Academies or the Ivies. Are you honestly telling me that you think there's the same amount of pressure on a coach at Harvard or Navy as there is at Ohio State? And I know several football players at USNA that did track in the spring, so I think it's a little more common than you believe to do more than one varsity sport. And as far as Professor Fleming having access to the full and complete story about honor hearings, people talk. I know of several controversial honor board decisions where the details spread around USNA even though they were supposedly confidential. Plus, anyone can sit in on a good portion of any Honor Board, including professors, if they so desire.
bigwill2876
New Member
The fact that a few people on the USNA football team (IIRC 2 were lately on the Track team, so 2 out of about 100 is common ?) can play other Intercollegiate sports (usually the sprint events in Track) show how high the quality of the persons recruited to USNA actually are in general. If you take the time to research you will see how uncommon multiple sports in any college are these days.
I personally know several Head Coach at the schools that we are discussing in various sports, including football (the largest revenue sport).
The pressure on ALL of them is to win and keep their jobs.
Harvard recruits for football on a national basis, they send Assistant football coaches all over the USA looking for the kids that can make the REDUCED academic requirements for admission. Within the Ivy League there are standards for ATHLETES that allow Penn, Columbia and others to recruit athletes that Harvard/Yale can't recruit.
I assume you can bow so somebody that has actually played rather than your suppositions.
Title IX sports teams recruit as well.
It is true that the athletic teams for Women usually have a better combined team GPA than their Male counterparts, especially football. Head Coaches like Schiano at Rutgers can have a beneficial effect on the teams overall GPA by focusing on academics. His record is that the team GPA has improved by about .75 overall since his arrival. Not included the graduation rate which has gone to 100 % (minus early departees for NFL $). But HC's like Shiano are the exception rather than the rule in football.
Is it possible that rumors spread without factual evidence at USNA ?
So have you asked Fleming if he has attended Honor Boards ?
I personally know several Head Coach at the schools that we are discussing in various sports, including football (the largest revenue sport).
The pressure on ALL of them is to win and keep their jobs.
Harvard recruits for football on a national basis, they send Assistant football coaches all over the USA looking for the kids that can make the REDUCED academic requirements for admission. Within the Ivy League there are standards for ATHLETES that allow Penn, Columbia and others to recruit athletes that Harvard/Yale can't recruit.
I assume you can bow so somebody that has actually played rather than your suppositions.
Title IX sports teams recruit as well.
It is true that the athletic teams for Women usually have a better combined team GPA than their Male counterparts, especially football. Head Coaches like Schiano at Rutgers can have a beneficial effect on the teams overall GPA by focusing on academics. His record is that the team GPA has improved by about .75 overall since his arrival. Not included the graduation rate which has gone to 100 % (minus early departees for NFL $). But HC's like Shiano are the exception rather than the rule in football.
Is it possible that rumors spread without factual evidence at USNA ?
So have you asked Fleming if he has attended Honor Boards ?
And I'm assuming that all of your information about the Academy and Fleming is remotely current? When did you graduate again? You're just stirring the pot for no reason. I'm not sure exactly what causes your intense dislike for Professor Fleming, but for most of us much more current USNA graduates, his analysis (at least in this case), is pretty spot on. Case in point: the honor system has been totally revamped within the last five years. Do you have any idea how the current system works? And again, I firmly believe that the pressure to win, and the media spotlight in general is much more intense when you are a BCS conference coach as opposed to an Ivy/Service Academy coach.
WINNER...WINNER...WINNER. And the winner of the 2010 AW Most Disjointed Post Of The Year Award goes to BigWill.
bigwill2876
New Member
I have no intention/interest in continuing the "debate".
There is no pot that I am stirring, I am giving you factual information, you want to believe what you believe.
That is fine with me.
I have never stated an "intense dislike" for Fleming, just get tired of his timed rants tied into his current published work and the biting of the hand that has fed him for his career. I have more interest in the volunteers Midshipman shoveling out Annapolis last winter than one Midshipman testing postitive for THC, being given a second chance and "blowing" that chance and GAWN, as he should have been.
I see and am constantly amazed at the type of kids that show up for Plebe Summer and come out the other end 4 years later. USNA and the other Service Acadamies aren't perfect but I more than happy with the results.
You are making assumptions about Fleming, like him attending Honor Board functions when there is no published evidence that to be true or even part of the debate about Fleming.
Of course media spotlights are much brighter at Ohio State than Columbia (Ivy League), but the pressure to Win and the will to Win, and the results of not Winning are the same. Some could say that the pressure at Columbia on a Head Coach of football could be even higher for that particular person. Smaller programs being one of the rungs of the ladder to Ohio State (like Youngstown State was to the current Head Coach at Ohio State, or PJ from Ga Southern, to NAVY, to Ga Tech.) and the multi-million dollar contract that sets them up for life. Do I think that a Football Head Coach should make the sums that some of them make ? That is for another discussion.
Saw Charlie Weiss last weekend here in NJ. He looked great, lost weight, nice tan, since being fired at ND and being made a multi-millionaire with the ND contract payout. Plus he still has a nice job in the NFL as an Offensive Co-ord. Naturally these type of personalities don't like to fail, but 50% of them do every game.
Things change on The Yard, from old timers bemoan putting A/C into Mother B, to no lard this Spring.
Fowler is gone. I was not happy with some of his decisions and his changes.
The new Supe is in let's see what he does to make new changes or changes back to the old.
There is no pot that I am stirring, I am giving you factual information, you want to believe what you believe.
That is fine with me.
I have never stated an "intense dislike" for Fleming, just get tired of his timed rants tied into his current published work and the biting of the hand that has fed him for his career. I have more interest in the volunteers Midshipman shoveling out Annapolis last winter than one Midshipman testing postitive for THC, being given a second chance and "blowing" that chance and GAWN, as he should have been.
I see and am constantly amazed at the type of kids that show up for Plebe Summer and come out the other end 4 years later. USNA and the other Service Acadamies aren't perfect but I more than happy with the results.
You are making assumptions about Fleming, like him attending Honor Board functions when there is no published evidence that to be true or even part of the debate about Fleming.
Of course media spotlights are much brighter at Ohio State than Columbia (Ivy League), but the pressure to Win and the will to Win, and the results of not Winning are the same. Some could say that the pressure at Columbia on a Head Coach of football could be even higher for that particular person. Smaller programs being one of the rungs of the ladder to Ohio State (like Youngstown State was to the current Head Coach at Ohio State, or PJ from Ga Southern, to NAVY, to Ga Tech.) and the multi-million dollar contract that sets them up for life. Do I think that a Football Head Coach should make the sums that some of them make ? That is for another discussion.
Saw Charlie Weiss last weekend here in NJ. He looked great, lost weight, nice tan, since being fired at ND and being made a multi-millionaire with the ND contract payout. Plus he still has a nice job in the NFL as an Offensive Co-ord. Naturally these type of personalities don't like to fail, but 50% of them do every game.
Things change on The Yard, from old timers bemoan putting A/C into Mother B, to no lard this Spring.
Fowler is gone. I was not happy with some of his decisions and his changes.
The new Supe is in let's see what he does to make new changes or changes back to the old.
Look, you're rolling in hot here, sounding like a hard-core Navy alum, which is fine. You sound off about how you were recruited by everyone, lettered in multiple sports, blah, blah. However, your profile has next to nothing on it. You're giving Navy and Marine officers the business here, but other than spouting about all the big shots you know, you haven't given anything about your background or about why you're a credible source on the topic.
I don't care how many schools wanted you to play for them. The academy, and this website, exist for the benefit of the Navy, Marine, and USCG officer corps. What have you done there? Wars are the gridiron that the the academies, NROTC, and even Navy football exist to prepare for. Have you played any downs on that playing field? I ask because so far you are trying to come off as the big time sports expert. That's fine on the ESPN.com chat room. On AW, unless you are active duty or retired, and preferably a pilot or NFO, I don't give 2 shits about your opinion.
Wow, you would think with all of that education your grammar would be better.....
bigwill2876
New Member
I have never besmirched the Navy, the Marine Corps, the Coast Guard, the USNA, or any USNA grad here or anywhere.
Sit down next to me in uniform and drinks/meals are on me, start a conversation out of uniform and I find you are USNA grad and drinks/meals are on me.
I have no "intense dislike" for Flemster, but when he besmirches the above I speak out where and when I can.
I don't agree with his suppositions/opinions, if you do fine and dandy.
Internet police of spelling and punkuation is trivial at best...
Thank you for the award, I return the favor with the award of "Order of The Palm".
I realize it can be annoying when somebody knows more about a subject, like athletics at the college level , than yourself.
Some of you do better with paragraphs, that is fine by me. It's good to be good at things.
Sit down next to me in uniform and drinks/meals are on me, start a conversation out of uniform and I find you are USNA grad and drinks/meals are on me.
I have no "intense dislike" for Flemster, but when he besmirches the above I speak out where and when I can.
I don't agree with his suppositions/opinions, if you do fine and dandy.
Internet police of spelling and punkuation is trivial at best...
Thank you for the award, I return the favor with the award of "Order of The Palm".
I realize it can be annoying when somebody knows more about a subject, like athletics at the college level , than yourself.
Some of you do better with paragraphs, that is fine by me. It's good to be good at things.