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Rare designators in USN

Max the Mad Russian

Hands off Ukraine! Feet too
People,
Two questions, one for aviation and one about SWO on a carriers.

1. Who is the Naval Aviation Psychologist in USN? Suppose 230x designator or something similar in Staff Corps. Should s/he pass API and primary training in fixed wings or just API? Are those officers mostly former NA/NFO who jumped in the psy ocean or some psy people, who for some reasons want to surf the aviation world? And most interesting: what they are in charge of? The ironing out the brains of regular NA/NFOs? Quite sceptical in psy matters at all, I completely don't understand how they can improve the military or flying performance. Maybe am wrong;
2. I have read that carrier CHENG can be:

- Nuke surface LDO;
- Nuke SWO, URL;
- Nuke EDO, RL;
- Submariner (?? is that true??)
Two latter options, i.e. EDO or Bubblehead, being the senior non-aviator aboard - how they can lead the other carrier SWOs?


Thanks in advance, Max
 

Uncle Fester

Robot Pimp
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
People,
Two questions, one for aviation and one about SWO on a carriers.

1. Who is the Naval Aviation Psychologist in USN? Suppose 230x designator or something similar in Staff Corps. Should s/he pass API and primary training in fixed wings or just API? Are those officers mostly former NA/NFO who jumped in the psy ocean or some psy people, who for some reasons want to surf the aviation world? And most interesting: what they are in charge of? The ironing out the brains of regular NA/NFOs? Quite sceptical in psy matters at all, I completely don't understand how they can improve the military or flying performance. Maybe am wrong;
2. I have read that carrier CHENG can be:

- Nuke surface LDO;
- Nuke SWO, URL;
- Nuke EDO, RL;
- Submariner (?? is that true??)
Two latter options, i.e. EDO or Bubblehead, being the senior non-aviator aboard - how they can lead the other carrier SWOs?


Thanks in advance, Max

Flight Pshrinks are analogous to Flight Surgeons, doctors with specialty training in aviation health/mental health issues and mostly assigned to aviation units. They have a flight training track; Trawing Six was running it when last I looked, not sure if that's still the case. It's basically an orientation to flying. Occasionally pilots/FOs will get out, go through med school, then come back through as Docs, but it's rare. Someone willing to start med school in their 30s-40s is uncommon anywhere. But there was a former A-6 BN in my class at the VTs.

The Boat has a Chief Engineer and a Reactor Officer. CHENG is usually an O-5 SWO; the RO is an O-6 Nuke SWO. RO is considered equivalent to a senior command billet for the Nukes (they captain conventional ships for their CDR command). That's about all I know about them. I've never heard of a Sub guy assigned to a CVN engineering dept, and I can't think of why they would be.
 

LFCFan

*Insert nerd wings here*
I know a retired aviation psychologist (wrote me an OCS LOR, actually) and when I was in grad school looked into doing it. They focus mainly on test development, evaluations, safety issues that arise dealing with human behavior, etc. It isn't clinical work per se.
 

TimeBomb

Noise, vibration and harshness
Navy psychologists are Medical Service Corps officers (230x) and are divided between research psychologists and clinical psychologists. Clinical psychologists are licensed mental health practitioners, and can be assigned as ship's company on a CVN, or attached to fixed shore facilities like clinics or hospitals. It is not necessary for those individuals to be aviation psychologists.

Aviation psychologists go through the staff corps flight curriculum (whatever that happens to be at the time), and in my limited experience, are more likely to be research psychologists rather than clinical psychologists. Research psychologists have a number of potential billets, but there were a number of them assigned to the research labs when I was in, and had a lot to do with developing and maintaining selection batteries like the AQT/FAR and the LCAC aptitude testing. I haven't seen many psychologists cross over from research to clinical and back again. Once they're in one camp, they seem to stay there.

Some psychiatrists (MD or DO, 210x) are also designated flight surgeons, and can specialize in treating aviators. NAMI has always had a few of them assigned there, but I don't know if there are other billets scattered around that require an flight surgeon designated psychiatrist or aviation clinical psychologist.

There are always a few NA/NFO types who for various reasons leave the line side for the staff corps. Similar skill set in both fields, I suppose, and a different lifestyle.
R/
 

exNavyOffRec

Well-Known Member
Flight Pshrinks are analogous to Flight Surgeons, doctors with specialty training in aviation health/mental health issues and mostly assigned to aviation units. They have a flight training track; Trawing Six was running it when last I looked, not sure if that's still the case. It's basically an orientation to flying. Occasionally pilots/FOs will get out, go through med school, then come back through as Docs, but it's rare. Someone willing to start med school in their 30s-40s is uncommon anywhere. But there was a former A-6 BN in my class at the VTs.

The Boat has a Chief Engineer and a Reactor Officer. CHENG is usually an O-5 SWO; the RO is an O-6 Nuke SWO. RO is considered equivalent to a senior command billet for the Nukes (they captain conventional ships for their CDR command). That's about all I know about them. I've never heard of a Sub guy assigned to a CVN engineering dept, and I can't think of why they would be.

The CHENG position used to be a SWO, the past several years though it changed, now it will often be a Nuke EDO (Surf or Sub) or SWO-EDO, the position is usually an O-5 and sometimes they are selected for O-6 while there. The RO usually arrives as an O-5 (2 times in my career I saw them arrive as O-6) and will generally put on O-6 right before departing.

I have seen a few Sub officers go surface, usually it is when a medical condition DQ's them from sub duty but not nuke duty, they usually get out as it screws up their career path. The worst was back in the early 90's, a nuke sub officer who was on his way to be XO of a sub and get a spot promote to CDR along with it injured his back, he was DQ's subs, lost his spot promote, and sent to us as a MPA. He was obviously not competitive as a SWO-N as he didn't have a SWO pin, around a year after he arrived he was finally cleared for sub duty but they had no place for him, so he finished up his time and retired. He was pretty bummed, a few of the officers I worked with who had helped him get paperwork together trying to get back to subs said he had a pretty stellar career and was on track to be CO of a sub. He was one of the best nuke officers I ever worked with, great tech knowledge.
 

BigRed389

Registered User
None
The CHENG position used to be a SWO, the past several years though it changed, now it will often be a Nuke EDO (Surf or Sub) or SWO-EDO, the position is usually an O-5 and sometimes they are selected for O-6 while there. The RO usually arrives as an O-5 (2 times in my career I saw them arrive as O-6) and will generally put on O-6 right before departing.

I have seen a few Sub officers go surface, usually it is when a medical condition DQ's them from sub duty but not nuke duty, they usually get out as it screws up their career path. The worst was back in the early 90's, a nuke sub officer who was on his way to be XO of a sub and get a spot promote to CDR along with it injured his back, he was DQ's subs, lost his spot promote, and sent to us as a MPA. He was obviously not competitive as a SWO-N as he didn't have a SWO pin, around a year after he arrived he was finally cleared for sub duty but they had no place for him, so he finished up his time and retired. He was pretty bummed, a few of the officers I worked with who had helped him get paperwork together trying to get back to subs said he had a pretty stellar career and was on track to be CO of a sub. He was one of the best nuke officers I ever worked with, great tech knowledge.

Gouge is, for EDO's the carrier gig is usually given as a "deal" for someone to make O-6. For the topsider type EDOs, it's the CSO gig on a carrier.

I've seen quite a few sub guys who developed medical conditions go EDO and do very well there...it's not much different from a SWO/Sub AC type, just making the transition earlier.
 

exNavyOffRec

Well-Known Member
Gouge is, for EDO's the carrier gig is usually given as a "deal" for someone to make O-6. For the topsider type EDOs, it's the CSO gig on a carrier.

I've seen quite a few sub guys who developed medical conditions go EDO and do very well there...it's not much different from a SWO/Sub AC type, just making the transition earlier.

The past 15 years every CHENG I know on a CVN was an EDO, either SWO-EDO or EDO-N, they very well could have designated that certain carriers will have EDO's and others straight SWO's, they did something similar with the Chem Radcon assistant on CVN's, certain carriers get SWO-N and others get nuke LDO's, the CSO's are now in general LDO's, a friend of mine just recently finished his CSO tour
 

Max the Mad Russian

Hands off Ukraine! Feet too
Thanks Gents,

Someone willing to start med school in their 30s-40s is uncommon anywhere.

That's right anywhere, indeed. Some psychologists say that one has to achieve some kind of professional success up to the age of 26, then you can change everything as you do know how to cope with the problems generally speaking. I can imagine NA/NFO in 26 doing well in his/her field, but a good and quite professional Doc in 26 is very seldom event, I think. It takes a lot more work and experience to achieve needed skills in this field.

. They focus mainly on test development, evaluations, safety issues that arise dealing with human behavior, etc. It isn't clinical work per se.

I haven't seen many psychologists cross over from research to clinical and back again. Once they're in one camp, they seem to stay there.

So which of value this good diagnostician can bring to CVW's everyday routine, being attached there? Each billet is needed for something valuable. For example, in USN submarine company there is only one enlisted medic, usually HM1. It seems that he can bring all needed medical service to every person on board, and the quality of treatment and curing/testing ashore before the boat is deployed allows to skip all the heavy health problems, so that poor Corpsman can cope with everything he could face. Ok, maybe it is proper view. Russian sub has two medical officers aside of the three enlisted medics: a medical DH, usually naval medical service LtCol, who is surgeon and main therapist simultaneously, and his assistant Maj, who is a dentist and "psy beast" (jokingly: Holy Inquisitor or Gestapo man). They can do almost everything at sea, each sort of surgery including. Heart attacks and even strokes at sea (among the COs with their very nervous job, especially for aged people) are not unheard of, and in some cases the sub's patrol hadn't been effectively finished or even interrupted by such events: suffering officers and men were treated good enough. The difference is: if we couldn't treat our people ashore well enough, we have to have the solid medical assets at sea. So how the naval aviation psychologist can be useful for the CAG?


He was obviously not competitive as a SWO-N as he didn't have a SWO pin, around a year after he arrived he was finally cleared for sub duty but they had no place for him, so he finished up his time and retired.

Sad story. What is MPA? If that guy was brilliant nuke, whether his Dolphin pin meant nothing in comparison with SWO skills?

The past 15 years every CHENG I know on a CVN was an EDO, either SWO-EDO or EDO-N

Ok, so how he (or she, if any) can run the training and quals of young SWOs who are on their first carrier tour?
 

exNavyOffRec

Well-Known Member
Sad story. What is MPA? If that guy was brilliant nuke, whether his Dolphin pin meant nothing in comparison with SWO skills?



Ok, so how he (or she, if any) can run the training and quals of young SWOs who are on their first carrier tour?

SWO nukes and Sub nukes have completely different paths.

SWO's no longer go to a CVN as a first tour, only after qualifying SWO on another ship, and before they changed the rules the only SWO's I saw go to a CVN for a first tours were SWO-N
 

TimeBomb

Noise, vibration and harshness
Max,
From what I've heard, the primary business for the clinical psychologist (not necessarily an aviation psychologist) on board the CVN comes from ship's company, not the air wing. For that reason, they are assigned to the ship as ship's company, not assigned to the squadrons or to the air wing.

Psychologists in the Navy come in several flavors. Research psychologists don't treat patients. The Navy had a few of them in the research labs, and a few of them are involved with survey development. Clinical psychologists treat patients, and as mentioned, are assigned to CVNs or to hospitals and clinics where they earn their money. Aviation Experimental Psychologists (AEP) are a subset of research psychologists, don't treat patients, and as LFCfan notes, are involved in aviation research like selection test batteries, or in human factors analysis. A number of Navy AEPs have found work with the FAA based on their human factors experience.

The analogous situation exists in the USN aviation population as in the USN submarine force. Individuals who are in these communities are subject to additional up-front selection processes, and typically have a lengthy period of education prior to actual deployment. The combination of additional medical screening, and a longer observation period seem to result in fewer health problems overall in these communities. Hence, the comparatively limited organic medical available provided to the aviation squadron and submarine.

Mental health concerns are a big problem for the CO of the CVN, as suicide or even attempted suicide is a hot-button item for big Navy. Having a psychologist on board can expertly assess individuals who present to medical with mental illnesses. That medical professional can provide treatment on board if appropriate, and can advise the CO if the service member may need to be evacuated from the ship.

My psychologist colleagues who are assigned to aircraft carriers are typically pretty busy. Lot of first-tour sailors who have problems coping with life at sea know that saying "I'm going to kill myself" typically gets them out of work and off the ship.
R/
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Lot of first-tour sailors who have problems coping with life at sea know that saying "I'm going to kill myself" typically gets them out of work and off the ship.
The Navy/MEPS also needs to do a much better job of screening new recruits in all facets of mental health. We have seen a tremendous uptick in separations due to adjustment disorders of one kind or another - usually with a history of trauma/abuse of some kind. Naturally, these come in legitimate forms, as well as those that are flirting with malingering, but mental health professionals are (understandably) reluctant to play that card. It's frustrating, to say the least, and it impacts manning and readiness throughout the force.
 

exNavyOffRec

Well-Known Member
The Navy/MEPS also needs to do a much better job of screening new recruits in all facets of mental health. We have seen a tremendous uptick in separations due to adjustment disorders of one kind or another - usually with a history of trauma/abuse of some kind. Naturally, these come in legitimate forms, as well as those that are flirting with malingering, but mental health professionals are (understandably) reluctant to play that card. It's frustrating, to say the least, and it impacts manning and readiness throughout the force.

MEPS can only go by what they are told, and what one person considers abuse another may consider a normal home life even though it is abuse, you could give everyone a psych eval but then who knows what you get, each psych is different.
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Yeah, I get that it's not easy, and that having a history of abuse doesn't necessarily mean that an individual will have difficulty adjusting to a military lifestyle, but some of the people I've dealt with are barely functional emotional basket cases when faced with the prospect of working on the flight deck. Probably something worth exploring before we give someone an aviation rate or but them through an A-PACT pipeline.

We need some policy solutions to this problem that address the Sailor's ability to abuse the mental health trump card to separate after serving a fraction of their contracts with benefits like GI bill, etc.
 

exNavyOffRec

Well-Known Member
Yeah, I get that it's not easy, and that having a history of abuse doesn't necessarily mean that an individual will have difficulty adjusting to a military lifestyle, but some of the people I've dealt with are barely functional emotional basket cases when faced with the prospect of working on the flight deck. Probably something worth exploring before we give someone an aviation rate or but them through an A-PACT pipeline.

We need some policy solutions to this problem that address the Sailor's ability to abuse the mental health trump card to separate after serving a fraction of their contracts with benefits like GI bill, etc.

I have seen people abuse the psych card, especially nukes on a CVN, hell we had one Psych doc onboard that went overboard, nearly every nuke that went up to talk to him was found to have some issue that ended up removing them from watchstanding for some period of time, he thought that a person being on 6 on 6 off was too stressful and that even 5 on 10 off didn't allow for enough time "feel better" or some crap like that, there was a bit of time that we had CPO's standing watches that were normally stood by E-5's and junior E-6's until the psyhc do was able to get an understanding on how the real navy worked.
 

LFCFan

*Insert nerd wings here*
Max,
From what I've heard, the primary business for the clinical psychologist (not necessarily an aviation psychologist) on board the CVN comes from ship's company, not the air wing. For that reason, they are assigned to the ship as ship's company, not assigned to the squadrons or to the air wing.

Psychologists in the Navy come in several flavors. Research psychologists don't treat patients. The Navy had a few of them in the research labs, and a few of them are involved with survey development. Clinical psychologists treat patients, and as mentioned, are assigned to CVNs or to hospitals and clinics where they earn their money. Aviation Experimental Psychologists (AEP) are a subset of research psychologists, don't treat patients, and as LFCfan notes, are involved in aviation research like selection test batteries, or in human factors analysis. A number of Navy AEPs have found work with the FAA based on their human factors experience.

R/

Right, the clinician in ship's company (the psych-o ... probably one of the best/worst puns I've seen on a jersey). The AEP I know was at one point attached to a helo squadron, I think he was their safety officer IIRC...but that was as long time ago. If I recall as well, AEPs used to get more of the flight school syllabus than they do these days.
 
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