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Fidelity up, Obedience Down: Pothead kicked off Football Team
- Thread starter PropAddict
- Start date
Haha Love it!!
phrogpilot73
Well-Known Member
For someone who was prior enlisted, spent 4 years at USNA, and 10 years on active duty in the fleet, I'll counter with the statement that I agree with damn near every point he mentioned.
Clux4
Banned
The product of the service academies will serve in a military where the average officer had multiple attempts to complete a 'low-track' class. I mean, the other 80% of the officer corps is not finishing college with a 3.8 GPA either. I agree, standard may have dropped but I think this is a national issue.
As it appears, the issues surround USNA Football and not the other sports. It may be their coaching/recruiting staff and not the students. I don't think I have heard of similar issues out of West Point in the last 8 years.
I agree wholeheartedly. Fleming has had some other controversial topics in the past (the whole "Set Aside" issue), but the fact is the reason they are so controversial is because he is 100% correct. I applaud the fact that he makes this stuff known and I hope that it sparks some internal changes. I doubt it will happen, but I can hope.
12gauge007
New Member
The "set aside" article came out my Youngster year, and I remember all the T-shirts from those groups mentioned in the article taking pride in fact that they were considered second class attendees at the school.
Now maybe the administration can make some sweet Tees, "We drop standards here."
P.S. This is my first bitter alumni post. Feels so good.
Now maybe the administration can make some sweet Tees, "We drop standards here."
P.S. This is my first bitter alumni post. Feels so good.
12gauge007
New Member
I would like to add to this after some more thought, than just the initial knee jerk reaction, which is my above post. This comes after a more indepth conversation with another graduate.
I think I am disagreeing with him the more and more I think about it:
First, he obviously has an issue with us being a Div 1 school and continuing to make that a priority. However, football pays for every other sport, and I think we can agree that athletic and physically in shape officers natural garner more respect and maintain higher standards than non. A sad but true statement regarding how important appearances are. The marines know this the best.
Second, part of the reason you and I went to the Academy was the respect we knew we would earn when we graduated. Having the national spotlight on the school, through our sports teams is what contributes the the national notoriety we have as alumnus. The is concurrent with have President's, etc, amongst our ranks, but lets be honest, our most famous graduates are Roger Staubach and David Robinson to the general populous.
Finally, the Academies are dealing with the changing of cultures in terms of traditions just like every behemoth of an organization; gays in the military, government and health care, Catholic church and allowing priests to marry. Change is slow and in that transition period it is always rough.
Finally, I would outright disagree with the idea that Academy officers are no visibly better in supporting the military than OCS or ROTC officers and here is why. If you look at the top ranks of the military, the majority are academy guys, in every service. Perhaps its the understanding they want to make it a career, perhaps its the Academy/Admirals club, perhaps its that the finer points of leadership and ethics are focused on and brought to light earlier to Academy grads?
Another example is where we are right now. If academy guys suck so much, why are 50% of the Jet community Academy graduates?
I am not defending keeping guys that smoke pot, or ease of academic standards for athletes or minorities, but I do understand that not everyone is not on the same academic level and that your ability to differentiate equations has little to do with your leadership ability.
I think that Bruce is on the right track, however, I think he is making the fundamental flaw of assuming academic ability is the sole factor of our entrants. Remember we are the only non-academic academic institutions. At an Academy, getting a bachelor's degree in whatever our major is secondary to us getting a bachelor's in leadership for the Navy.
Sincerely,
Now Semi-disgruntled '07 Grad
I think I am disagreeing with him the more and more I think about it:
First, he obviously has an issue with us being a Div 1 school and continuing to make that a priority. However, football pays for every other sport, and I think we can agree that athletic and physically in shape officers natural garner more respect and maintain higher standards than non. A sad but true statement regarding how important appearances are. The marines know this the best.
Second, part of the reason you and I went to the Academy was the respect we knew we would earn when we graduated. Having the national spotlight on the school, through our sports teams is what contributes the the national notoriety we have as alumnus. The is concurrent with have President's, etc, amongst our ranks, but lets be honest, our most famous graduates are Roger Staubach and David Robinson to the general populous.
Finally, the Academies are dealing with the changing of cultures in terms of traditions just like every behemoth of an organization; gays in the military, government and health care, Catholic church and allowing priests to marry. Change is slow and in that transition period it is always rough.
Finally, I would outright disagree with the idea that Academy officers are no visibly better in supporting the military than OCS or ROTC officers and here is why. If you look at the top ranks of the military, the majority are academy guys, in every service. Perhaps its the understanding they want to make it a career, perhaps its the Academy/Admirals club, perhaps its that the finer points of leadership and ethics are focused on and brought to light earlier to Academy grads?
Another example is where we are right now. If academy guys suck so much, why are 50% of the Jet community Academy graduates?
I am not defending keeping guys that smoke pot, or ease of academic standards for athletes or minorities, but I do understand that not everyone is not on the same academic level and that your ability to differentiate equations has little to do with your leadership ability.
I think that Bruce is on the right track, however, I think he is making the fundamental flaw of assuming academic ability is the sole factor of our entrants. Remember we are the only non-academic academic institutions. At an Academy, getting a bachelor's degree in whatever our major is secondary to us getting a bachelor's in leadership for the Navy.
Sincerely,
Now Semi-disgruntled '07 Grad
"Having the national spotlight on the school, through our sports teams is what contributes the the national notoriety we have as alumnus."
It is certainly a lot of free/cheap publicity; any studies that show how that has affected general recruiting for the Navy/USMC and applications for the Academy, particularly in comparison to the other services and servicec academies?
The publicity is clearly a benefit to the Navy. Does that offset the negative perceptions of these type incidents, and the frustrations of the people who see the lower standards for athletes?
It is certainly a lot of free/cheap publicity; any studies that show how that has affected general recruiting for the Navy/USMC and applications for the Academy, particularly in comparison to the other services and servicec academies?
The publicity is clearly a benefit to the Navy. Does that offset the negative perceptions of these type incidents, and the frustrations of the people who see the lower standards for athletes?
12gauge007
New Member
Honestly, no clue to exact numbers. But the reality is no one in my high school knew what the Academies were other than the few of us applying to them. All those people knew in college when they started following college athletics more.
Sadly, its like a Harvard or Yale, not that I am comparing the academic difficulty to either since I did not attend them, but people "know" they are tough and therefore get respect. How do we "know"? Word of mouth? Reputation? Publicity?
A think anyone worth is salt knows you are only as good as your reputation. Do I support cheating and lower standards to earn a better one? Hell no. Do I understand that getting your name out there in a positive light, so that young kids wants to apply to your school and you can choose the best is important, absolutely.
As far as the other Academies, I was fortunate enough to do a semester on exchange to West Point, and I can tell you they struggle with the exact same issues. Hell, they segregate athletes into an entirely separate platoon within each company.
All in all, I would say we aren't doing it right, but I do not envy those trying to affect change.
And as I read this, I realize I am becoming "that" academy guy. Great. Just the rep I need. Gun. Foot.
Sadly, its like a Harvard or Yale, not that I am comparing the academic difficulty to either since I did not attend them, but people "know" they are tough and therefore get respect. How do we "know"? Word of mouth? Reputation? Publicity?
A think anyone worth is salt knows you are only as good as your reputation. Do I support cheating and lower standards to earn a better one? Hell no. Do I understand that getting your name out there in a positive light, so that young kids wants to apply to your school and you can choose the best is important, absolutely.
As far as the other Academies, I was fortunate enough to do a semester on exchange to West Point, and I can tell you they struggle with the exact same issues. Hell, they segregate athletes into an entirely separate platoon within each company.
All in all, I would say we aren't doing it right, but I do not envy those trying to affect change.
And as I read this, I realize I am becoming "that" academy guy. Great. Just the rep I need. Gun. Foot.
Well that's a loaded statistic... in more way than one on this board!
Yeah, the helo pilot side of me had a great response, but the Academy grad side forced me to keep my mouth shut.
12gauge007
New Member
Yeah I'm gonna shut up now. Waiting for more flames.
Navy Sailing is a self supporting entity. They also produce more national and international (including Olympians) competitors and champions than the football team does.
Sincerely-
Not a Canoe U grad....
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