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Farting in Church

HAL Pilot

Well-Known Member
None
Contributor
#62
Ummm, pretty sure that airline pilots are hourly employees. The bulk of their pay comes from those 10 hours out of 72.
All of it comes from those 10 hours except for per diem which isn't much.

I never said the QOL was there or getting a degree in the off time was easy, I just said bull shit to 100 hour work weeks as a norm or even 80-90 hour work weeks. I'll buy 60 hours plus duty overnights.
 

MAKE VAPES

Uncle Pettibone
pilot
#63
Don't recall if "this thread" actually has a link to the NPS Thesis same subject. I found it a very good read...but it's long...and needed to be to tell the story of "how we came to be what we are...Officer Accessions-Wise". Good table of contents, however, which can help focus your specific interests:
NAVAL POSTGRADUATE SCHOOL
MONTEREY, CALIFORNIA
THESIS
AN ANALYSIS OF NAVAL OFFICER ACCESSION PROGRAMS
by William D. Lehner March 2008
Cut and Paste: http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA479949
I got through the first third of it... interesting, BUT the analysis is so fundumentally flawed I could go no further... there is no possible way to examine promotion, retention and performance evaluation as independent variables, they are dependent on one another, and on external factors (the ringknocking effect et al...). Guess its not an OA product, don't know if it would have gotten through in that department...
 

Renegade One

Well-Known Member
None
#64
...the analysis is so fundumentally flawed I could go no further... there is no possible way to examine promotion, retention and performance evaluation as independent variables, they are dependent on one another, and on external factors (the ringknocking effect et al...). .
I think I understand what you're saying and think I agree, although I ain't no OA type myself. However, those descriptors/variables you mention seem to always get thrown out as "the very reasons why the Academies are valuable/better/more economical/needed/fill in the blank".
I'm pretty sure that the three main officer accession sources are all here to stay, for a lot of good reasons.
 

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
#65
I never said the QOL was there or getting a degree in the off time was easy, I just said bull shit to 100 hour work weeks as a norm or even 80-90 hour work weeks. I'll buy 60 hours plus duty overnights.
100 may have been the high end for some of the nuclear divisions, but as you know duty doesn't mean just sleeping on the boat and watching movies. It means standing watch between the hours of 1800 and reveille and on weekends. I count that as doing work. On average, the actual number in an availability is closer to 70-80 in a 3-section duty rotation, 50-60 for 4-section. Some divisions have an easier workload and work less, some more.

But that doesn't diminish my point that calling these Sailors unmotivated for not doing 20 hours of college coursework on top of that while still trying to manage a personal life, particularly for married Sailors, is an unfair statement. I acknowledge the "choose your rate..." thing, but why not afford Sailors the opportunity to do a shore duty with dedicated college coursework that would supplement their in-rate knowledge? We offer graduate opportunities for Officers, and I don't think you can say all of those degrees offer a large benefit to the Navy. I think there's a clear benefit to the Navy there, particularly as we are shifting to COTS systems and are becoming increasingly reliant on networking systems that most businesses hire guys with college degrees to maintain and fix. And it can also help as a retention tool to keep people in for the 10-14 years of service mark that is hard to achieve when the economy isn't in the tank.

When I was a reserve program manager at the NAR Whidbey I had an NAS reserve unit and a first class who's day job was as a calibration gear design engineer at Boeing. AIMD had whole racks of calibration stuff that he would fix on his drill weekend that no one else had a clue how to fix.
This is what I'm getting at. There are some systems where the guys who know how to really fix issues are becoming an endangered species, and their extinction would hurt readiness.
 

BigRed389

Registered User
None
#66
The CTN rating already has a pretty good model for what you're talking about: they get civilian equivalent certificates and training...because their job requires it.

It only makes sense as long as we're very, very selective about the majors and training programs that are allowed. The ugly thing about this is that this type of school should all probably be in rate C school training...but the continual shift to COTS means it may not be affordable to do it in house.

That said, I also don't think a conventional BA/BS education is the right fit either. Certificates, technical training courses as recruitment incentives, between tours, TAD, etc., but the ROI on sending a PO2 to a traditional college program coming back as an LPO isn't as high.
 

PropAddict

Now with even more awesome!
pilot
Contributor
#68
I did, in reference to what I've observed to be a minority inside the very small minority of sailors who don't pursue higher education of some sort, in a P-3 squadron. I also mentioned some other explanations. YMMV.
 

ssnspoon

Get a brace!
pilot
#69
I think OCS for the long training pipelines should be no better or worse on what it teaches you about the Navy,

Because, I'll be honest, by the time I got to the fleet, stuff I learned in college that was "important" to my career, was a bit fuzzy at times, and what I had learned in Flight Skool and in the Civ world was more useful in leadership than BOLC.

I'm not an Academy guy. BDCP/OCS (no the you can DOR wasn't in my cards) but I do wonder how much ROTC/Academy/OCS Reindeer Games really works into leadership, vice innate ability.

The cost per commission is a pretty solid argument. Question- Does Naptown have a full on hospital, and is that included in the cost? Not that it should make all the excess money vs ROTC, but here is my take.

I'm just wondering how the cost/student is arrived at. And how much of an apples-to-apples comparison it is to a "State School ROTC"

I've seen Bancroft. I can't really see how it is more expensive to maintain or heat than a normal college dorm of similar size. Especially since you have local indentured servants to do a lot of the grunt work. I will assume the Mids do most of the janitorial stuff, like at OCS. Correct if wrong.
Food. Full meal plan at U0fM Ann Arbor is $4640 for 2012. I'm assuming the food served all year is similar to Summer Seminar. Can't see it costing more than a normal college.
Mid Cruises. Should be about the same cost as ROTC, no?
Health care. I can see this being a bit more. Are ROTC covered by tricare other than MCECP and STA-21?
Teachers- Faculty to student ratio is comparable to my college (small private school of nerdery). Tuition there is about $30k/yr in 2012. Meal is $5k, and Dorms are 4k for $39k/yr all told.

I'm just trying to get a handle on where the extra money for a USNA student comes from. Not bashing, just curious. Is there a lot of wasted money, or is there something I'm missing that is unique to USNA and ungodly expensive. YPs are there, but I don't see them coming to more than 10k/mid/year.

My assumption is that they take school budget divided by students, or some similar form. The numbers always seemed ridiculous to me. I assume they count the "salary" of the students into effect, but do they also count the deductions (students pay for uniforms/dry cleaning/hair cuts/etc from that salary). I don't have any answers, but i bet the statistics are skewed towards the $$$$$ side.
 

Renegade One

Well-Known Member
None
#70
My assumption is that they take school budget divided by students, or some similar form. The numbers always seemed ridiculous to me. I assume they count the "salary" of the students into effect, but do they also count the deductions (students pay for uniforms/dry cleaning/hair cuts/etc from that salary). I don't have any answers, but i bet the statistics are skewed towards the $$$$$ side.
To quote our immediate past Secretary of State: "Does it really matter?"

Figures lie and liars figure. You will NEVER get an "apples to apples" comparison of the various commissioning sources. They are what they are, and they're all here to stay. We all have our opinions...
 
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