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USN Another call to "bring back S-3's" (Vikings are Zombies)
- Thread starter ChuckMK23
- Start date
To be clear, I wasn't advocating for the return of the S-3, I think it's living in rose-colored lenses for the most part at this point, but I was re-capping what the advocacy of it was for @jmcquate .
Let's look at the advantages of the S-3 before we dismiss this as a "dumb idea":
1. Multi-engine, non-centerline thrust...perfect quals for those eventually moving to "The Show".
2. Plenty of cockpit room for multiple DD "Boxes O' Joe"
3. More folks in the airplane, so more folks to buy "Moon Watches"
4. More jobs for CV-jet NFOs...who can also get right seat time with a front window.
5. New Type Wings and RAGs for my friends.
6. Miss Piggy
7. More "diversity" on the flight deck. You know in your heart that's a good thing.
BOOM...(mic drop)...
1. Multi-engine, non-centerline thrust...perfect quals for those eventually moving to "The Show".
2. Plenty of cockpit room for multiple DD "Boxes O' Joe"
3. More folks in the airplane, so more folks to buy "Moon Watches"
4. More jobs for CV-jet NFOs...who can also get right seat time with a front window.
5. New Type Wings and RAGs for my friends.
6. Miss Piggy
7. More "diversity" on the flight deck. You know in your heart that's a good thing.
BOOM...(mic drop)...
These articles/debates wind up being nothing but admiring the problem. The defense blogging industry is good at that, but I've yet to see any that both address the problems honestly, and offer practical solutions to demonstrate that the benefits would outweigh the costs.
In the matter of the Zombie Hoov, the author of this article does address some of the problems, albeit in a single sentence, and immediately hand-waves them away:
In other words, throw some money at it and we're good?
CNAF doesn't have a contingency slush fund or 'innovation capital' laying around. Money for bringing the Hoov back to life would have to be taken away from some other aviation program. Anyone got too much money laying around in their community that they'd willingly give up?
How much would this actually cost, and how long would it take to get it going? As @Flash pointed out, just bringing back the two jets for VX-30 took a lot longer and cost a lot more than forecast (which never happens in DoD procurement) because of the unforeseen problems and knowledge/skills loss at the depot. And that was just restoring them to a basic flying state - no sensor/payload updates, etc. A KS-3 would have to be capable of being fully integrated with the CAG and strike group, otherwise what's the point? And nobody really knows the condition of the S-3s in the Boneyard. Until they're actually torn down and surveyed, at which point you know damn well there'll be an endless list of "oh shit..." discoveries.
Restart the training pipeline? With whom? The former VS aircrew and mx guys are scattered to the winds, the buildings given over to others or demolished, the sims long-gone.
Recreate the maintenance supply chain. That means getting L-M and all the subcontractors - many of them out of business or absorbed by bigger fish - to agree to start manufacturing parts they haven't made in decades. Either that, or we hope that they can pick-a-part the Boneyard fleet indefinitely. You can keep one or two planes going for a long time. NASA has four S-3s, and AFAIK they use three of them as parts lockers to keep one flying. Hell, Raytheon kept their A-3 flying until just a couple of years ago, and they're still flying one of those Mars water bombers up in BC. But this idea is on a whole different scale.
And finally: recall that all this time, effort, money, and disruption would be for the sake of a temporary, stopgap program. I absolutely agree that retiring the Hoov was premature and a bad idea. But trying to hit 'Undo' is fruitless at this point.
In the matter of the Zombie Hoov, the author of this article does address some of the problems, albeit in a single sentence, and immediately hand-waves them away:
In other words, throw some money at it and we're good?
CNAF doesn't have a contingency slush fund or 'innovation capital' laying around. Money for bringing the Hoov back to life would have to be taken away from some other aviation program. Anyone got too much money laying around in their community that they'd willingly give up?
How much would this actually cost, and how long would it take to get it going? As @Flash pointed out, just bringing back the two jets for VX-30 took a lot longer and cost a lot more than forecast (which never happens in DoD procurement) because of the unforeseen problems and knowledge/skills loss at the depot. And that was just restoring them to a basic flying state - no sensor/payload updates, etc. A KS-3 would have to be capable of being fully integrated with the CAG and strike group, otherwise what's the point? And nobody really knows the condition of the S-3s in the Boneyard. Until they're actually torn down and surveyed, at which point you know damn well there'll be an endless list of "oh shit..." discoveries.
Restart the training pipeline? With whom? The former VS aircrew and mx guys are scattered to the winds, the buildings given over to others or demolished, the sims long-gone.
Recreate the maintenance supply chain. That means getting L-M and all the subcontractors - many of them out of business or absorbed by bigger fish - to agree to start manufacturing parts they haven't made in decades. Either that, or we hope that they can pick-a-part the Boneyard fleet indefinitely. You can keep one or two planes going for a long time. NASA has four S-3s, and AFAIK they use three of them as parts lockers to keep one flying. Hell, Raytheon kept their A-3 flying until just a couple of years ago, and they're still flying one of those Mars water bombers up in BC. But this idea is on a whole different scale.
And finally: recall that all this time, effort, money, and disruption would be for the sake of a temporary, stopgap program. I absolutely agree that retiring the Hoov was premature and a bad idea. But trying to hit 'Undo' is fruitless at this point.
Spike, the fact that you’re in favor of it, by definition, makes it a dumb idea. (Smiles simulated)
You pretty much just summarized why the KC-3 (essentially a boneyard S-3 with a new fuselage) was never a serious consider for the COD role. Bummer... it could have been awesome.
Didn't know that I was advocating for it.
Saw it on the ramp at NASA Glenn in Cleveland last year.
That bird was getting painted in the FRC hangar when I dropped a Hornet into depot in December. It looks really nice up close.
F18 FRSs use them for low safes (and lunch runs) on both coasts and in El Centro.
Solid post.
Author lost me at “‘The Boneyard’ currently is home to 87 mission-capable S-3Bs.” Those jets are practice wrapped hulks that would take a lot of work to become flyers; not some sort of “green arrow in a glass case” that the author seems to imply.
Very nice! That is the late WWII paint scheme of VF-17, the Jolly Rogers. I’ll take it when the Navy’s done with it.
Huh? All late war USN birds were all over floss sea blue. That airplane is blue and green.Very nice! That is the late WWII paint scheme of VF-17, the Jolly Rogers. I’ll take it when the Navy’s done with it.
Also, late war there was no VF-17 Jolly Rogers. The original VF-17 Jolly Rogers was disestablished in 44. VF-84 flew as the Jolly Roger during the late war. VF-17 was re-established as a late war Hellcat Squadron.
I think I can come up with a competitive bid to have civilian pilots perform that mission. Waste of a F-18 pilot to perform that mission and maintain NATOPS qual in a turbo Weenie. Negative training and all. What do ya say Chuck? You can be COO. I'll be Chief Pilot West and @mad dog Chief Pilot East. Just need a name for the company. Oh, and sorry about the lunch run guys. No good deals left in this Navy.