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Max the Mad Russian

Hands off Ukraine! Feet too
Randy you evidently had funny time on USNS - if the top funnell of the ship is painted in Ukranian flag, it couldn't be grim:p
BTW, here in CIS former military helo pilots are usually finding themselves in a kind of Emergency services - government ones as well as private. Once sitting in a Finnish A320 enroute from Helsinki to Moscow, I have read in a FinnAir's magazine that Scandinavian governments are seeking for private emergency contractors wrapped around rescue helicopters since if any person asking for emergency for medical reason is not surviving due to the late coming of med help, the related society is losing about 2 million euros as a taxes from this person's work for a living. If injured person survive but cannot work afterwards, society lost more than 3 million euros. They stated that this account is solid enough to have two to five ready medevac crews in every regional town, which means up to 20 helo pilots's jobs in this town. Comparable with regional lines, I think. Just my two cents.
 

BleedGreen

Well-Known Member
pilot
So what you're saying is that your friend has no integrity and is dishonest.

Unemployment is supposed to provide for basic subsistence while you look for a new job, not to provide spending money while you travel.

Further, the law requires he look for employment while collecting unemployment compensation and certify to the appropriate agency administering the unemployment benefits that he is actively doing so.

You're friend is a liar, a criminal and a leech on society.
Hate to break it to you but that is pretty standard for the fire service, more specifically on the forestry side of things. The majority of Cal Fire and USFS employees do this because its great for the younger guys to knock out training, volunteer at their local fire station, improve their resume etc while waiting to be rehired. Furthermore, those agencies guarantee those laid off employees a job once fire season starts back up, so it normally doesn't make sense to try and find another job jeopardizing their rehire, just to quit within a few months. Firefighters work their ass off during fire season for low wages and depend on unemployment, a service they pay for while working, to survive the winter. Being able to budget for basic subsistence, and having leftover cash to travel with is not a crime. This can all be accomplished while keeping an eye on what new jobs pop up that meet or exceed the positions the hold with Cal Fire/USFS.
 

HAL Pilot

Well-Known Member
None
Contributor
If they have no intention of looking for or accepting another job, then they have no right to unemployment. It's not a crime to budget and travel, it is a crime to falsely claim unemployment benefits.

If you choose to have a seasonal job as your career, then you need to save and bubget appropriately to survive the off season. Surviving the off season by fraudulently claiming unemployment benefits lacks integrity, is crimminal and is leeching off the tax payers honestly earning an income.

It's their choice to pursue this type of life/career with it's known low pay and life style. Their choice doesn't entitle them to commit crime. I hope they get caught, get convicted and get the max legal punishment. They are not only committing a crime, they are doing it knowlingly, willingly and without remorse. They need to be held accountable under the law.

If you think otherwise, I'd say you lack integrity and ethics too.
 

BleedGreen

Well-Known Member
pilot
If they have no intention of looking for or accepting another job, then they have no right to unemployment. It's not a crime to budget and travel, it is a crime to falsely claim unemployment benefits.

If you choose to have a seasonal job as your career, then you need to save and bubget appropriately to survive the off season. Surviving the off season by fraudulently claiming unemployment benefits lacks integrity, is crimminal and is leeching off the tax payers honestly earning an income.

It's their choice to pursue this type of life/career with it's known low pay and life style. Their choice doesn't entitle them to commit crime. I hope they get caught, get convicted and get the max legal punishment. They are not only committing a crime, they are doing it knowlingly, willingly and without remorse. They need to be held accountable under the law.

If you think otherwise, I'd say you lack integrity and ethics too.

What is your definition of looking for and having the intention of accepting another job? While I was unemployed as a seasonal firefighter I was constantly looking for new career opportunities, alwhile having time and budgets funds to travel, improve my resume etc. it does not require your every waking minute to conduct a thorough job search. Being selective with what job you choose to accept is not criminal and utilizing a program that you pay into on the 1st and 15th of every month is not a crime.
The path your bashing is a well known, regularly pursued path by entry level firefighters across the country. So much so, that department's tailor their policies toward making the lifestyle fit for the backbone of their agency, the seasonal firefighter. The USFS firefighter apprenticeship program requires you to be laid off your first two fire seasons, but they're still permanent employees. I still don't see how that's criminal or lacking intergrity.
Pags is correct, those paychecks come out of the USFS's pot of money, same goes for Cal Fire. I can't speak for any other state but that is pretty standard.
 

HAL Pilot

Well-Known Member
None
Contributor
Someone is paying for that check. In most cases it's the previous employer.
Employers pay into the unemployment system but it is also funded by tax dollars. It is a combination of both with the largest portion being the tax dollars. Why do you think this "entitlement" and all the increases in both money and time that happened in the recent past were such a hot political issue.

What is your definition of looking for and having the intention of accepting another job? While I was unemployed as a seasonal firefighter I was constantly looking for new career opportunities, alwhile having time and budgets funds to travel, improve my resume etc. it does not require your every waking minute to conduct a thorough job search. Being selective with what job you choose to accept is not criminal and utilizing a program that you pay into on the 1st and 15th of every month is not a crime.
The path your bashing is a well known, regularly pursued path by entry level firefighters across the country. So much so, that department's tailor their policies toward making the lifestyle fit for the backbone of their agency, the seasonal firefighter. The USFS firefighter apprenticeship program requires you to be laid off your first two fire seasons, but they're still permanent employees. I still don't see how that's criminal or lacking intergrity.
Pags is correct, those paychecks come out of the USFS's pot of money, same goes for Cal Fire. I can't speak for any other state but that is pretty standard.
I was on unemployment twice when I was furloughed from my airline. The legal requirements were that you were actively seeking new employment, and you were required to accept any job within your career field that paid as much as the job you you were laid off from. This was for both Nevada and Hawaii unemployment. At the required briefing by the unemployment office, they stated these were federally mandated requirements so they are applicable to every state.

Actively seeking a job is not traveling during the off season or using unemployment money for a known predictable and regular layoff. USFS and Cal Fire might have jobs with known unpaid off seasons, but that just means those knowningly working those jobs are entitled to unemployment compensation as what is basically being used as an off season income. It is not their problem how their employees survive during the off season nor is it their problem to enforce unemployment compensation laws. They just want people willing to put up with their job shenanigans. I doubt you will ever find anyone in their organization willing to go on record offically advocating what you discribe.

BTW, there are plenty of other seasonal or part time jobs that pay what you get from unemployment. Substitute teaching is one that readily comes to mind. I substitute taught many times during my furlough when there were no flying jobs available. I typically made more money on a weekly basis doing this than I recieved from unemployment. Substitute teaching is not a full time job so it does not stop your unemployment. Instaed for each dollar earned during the week, a dollar less is paid in unemployment compensation for that week.When I needed to use the time for a job search activity (interview, etc.), I had the flexibility to do so and for that time I drew the unemployment as I was legitimately unable to work because of the permanent job search activity. Since unemployment is actually dollar based and not time base, it actually extended the safety net for longer periods.

Pilots in the situation you discribe can easily substitute teach during the off season without hurting the path to year round firefighter emplyment. And school districts will welcome them back every off season.

As a tax payer what you advocate pisses me off. I don't work year round to support anyones's off season because they choose to work this type of job as a career. If I had other than hearsay information, I'd report it to the appropriate unemployment office fraud division for investigation.
 

HAL Pilot

Well-Known Member
None
Contributor
USFS and Cal Fire might have jobs with known unpaid off seasons, but that does not mean those knowningly working those jobs are entitled to...
Fixed it to what I meant to say...typing long responses on a phone sucks.
 

BleedGreen

Well-Known Member
pilot
  • The legal requirements were that you were actively seeking new employment, and you were required to accept any job within your career field that paid as much as the job you were laid off from. /QUOTE]

This is why firefighters stay on unemployment instead of accepting any job that comes their way, the pay does not compare or its outside their career field. In comparison to what most of us are used to the pay is low, but it is much higher than most jobs that are willing to hire you, knowing your gone in only 5-6 months. Substitute teacher works for some, my coworker from the USFS did this during his off season and would not collect unemployment. Some people are willing to go outside their career field, others are not, and that is not illegal.
I get it, abusing government programs is a sore spot with all of us, but don't call those men and women who are out there, busting their ass in the summer heat every year, a bunch criminals because they're utilizing the programs presented to them.[/quote]
 

HAL Pilot

Well-Known Member
None
Contributor
This is why firefighters stay on unemployment instead of accepting any job that comes their way, the pay does not compare or its outside their career field. In comparison to what most of us are used to the pay is low, but it is much higher than most jobs that are willing to hire you, knowing your gone in only 5-6 months. Substitute teacher works for some, my coworker from the USFS did this during his off season and would not collect unemployment. Some people are willing to go outside their career field, others are not, and that is not illegal.
I get it, abusing government programs is a sore spot with all of us, but don't call those men and women who are out there, busting their ass in the summer heat every year, a bunch criminals because they're utilizing the programs presented to them.
If you are traveling for leisure (not job hunting related) and collecting unemployment, then you are not actively seeking employment and are fraudulently collecting the money. Fraud is a crime. That makes them a criminal.

If these programs are being presented to them, then they are being presented programs that illegally abuse unemployment. One "aw shit" wipes out a hundred "atta boys" especially when the "aw shit" is breaking the law. Busting their ass in the summer heat fighting fires is commendable. Breaking the law in the off season makes them criminal. It's not a balancing act with the one wiping out the other. Again, I seriously doubt any USFS or Cal Fire manager or hiring official is going to tell them to "take the off season for yourself, travel have fun and draw unemployment". It may be what is happening but it is not the official "program" sanctioned by any government agency. Unscrupulous private fire fighting employers may suggest this path too but I'd bet they'd deny it if ever officially questioned by an unemployment fraud investigation.


If you chose the lifestyle, you need to be able to legally afford the lifestyle. If you can't, you need to change jobs.

You can't justify criminal activity. Period.

So again - no integrity, criminal and leeching off the taxpayer.
 

Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
You can't justify criminal activity. Period.

So again - no integrity, criminal and leeching off the taxpayer.

While I get your anger, what you are writing in not illegal nor is it unethical, in fact is is expected and covered by many state unemployment offices. It applies specifically to seasonal workers like adjunct professors, substitute teachers, and I guess firefighters. There are no restrictions in any state of the US how one uses money given them from any program. It is theirs to use. Indeed, I imagine you would be pretty ticked off if the government said you can only use your VA disability (assuming you have one) to buy food and pay rent...no traveling or other stuff allowed.

The eligibility requirements for for staying on unemployment are that you are readily available to work, that you are seeking work (an application a week to Cal Fire would cover this), and that you are physically able to work. In most states, but not all, you can simply go on a computer and push a button that says..."I looked for work" and you are good to go. In others, you actually have to go to the unemployment office a few times a month and hand in addresses for where you have applied. In any case, unemployment is an insurance program, not an entitlement program. The taxes we pay along with the taxes our employers pay all go to insure us if I lose a job through no fault of our own...like the end of the fire season. Nothing illegal or unethical is happening here. As long as those people worked the necessary number of quarters to earn coverage, they are covered.
 

HAL Pilot

Well-Known Member
None
Contributor
Sorry Griz, it's plain fraud. The purpose of unemployment is not to be an income supplement because you choose to work a seasonal job and want to travel in the off season. No matter how you twist it around, it is fraud.

Run it by the unemployment fraud investigators. If you're right, you have nothing to fear. Otherwise I'll send you $20/month to use in the prison canteen for your Vaseline.
 

Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
Sorry Griz, it's plain fraud. The purpose of unemployment is not to be an income supplement because you choose to work a seasonal job and want to travel in the off season. No matter how you twist it around, it is fraud.

Run it by the unemployment fraud investigators. If you're right, you have nothing to fear. Otherwise I'll send you $20/month to use in the prison canteen for your Vaseline.

Well, Hal, thanks for the Jiffy Lube offer to help ease my way into GenPop (or is that for GenPop to ease their way into me? :eek:). Still, I think my butt is safe.

The Secretary of Interior noted, before Congress, that: "Seasonal employees are entitled to the same benefits as temporary employees, wherein they are eligible to earn annual and sick leave, if they work a full-time or part-time schedule. Employees are not eligible for coverage under the Federal Employees Group Life Insurance program or the Federal Employees Retirement System, but are covered by Social Security and unemployment compensation..." No, different states have different las, but California specifically notes that wild fire experts fall under the "seasonal" category and can apply for unemployment benefits IF they have worked the required number of hours. There isn't a fraud investigator that would find a problem with this in the four states I checked...CA, CO, MT, and ID.
 
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