Rand study on USAF pilot retention

[sevenhelmet]

For all its faults, it's still less absurd than the AF. It's more like HSL with more useful flight time, better pay, and better deployment sites.

...And zero SA or coordination capability outside of their own lane? During C2X, the P8 was more of a liability than anything else. At best, they were getting "shot down" in the exercise scenario. At worst, they were cutting through my strike stack, even though we had coordinated airspace through our own CSG and the CSG4 evaluators. I still can't fathom the depths of unprofessional behavior that resulted in a P8 pilot telling our C2 controller that "they don't work for us" when he was kindly asked to relocate to avoid a midair with multiple airwing players.

I'm really hoping that's not the norm, because it's completely unacceptable.

 

[Brett327]

That was probably Pickle.

 

[Hotdogs]

You're right - I do disagree.
Missile shoots and other training evolutions with live drops have so many controls, ORM and procedural safeguards in place that the actual risk of gooning it away is fairly low.

Not trying to call you out, but I think this varies heavily on communities. I would be willing to be any attack platform has seen shit go sideways more than you would like to believe.

How often do you actually employ live kinetic ordnance?

 

[Angry]

bring back the S-3 and you wont have to worry about us messing with your airspace...

 

[scoolbubba]

...And zero SA or coordination capability outside of their own lane? During C2X, the P8 was more of a liability than anything else. At best, they were getting "shot down" in the exercise scenario. At worst, they were cutting through my strike stack, even though we had coordinated airspace through our own CSG and the CSG4 evaluators. I still can't fathom the depths of unprofessional behavior that resulted in a P8 pilot telling our C2 controller that "they don't work for us" when he was kindly asked to relocate to avoid a midair with multiple airwing players.

I'm really hoping that's not the norm, because it's completely unacceptable.

I can’t speak to what the norm now is, but for how little we worked with the air wing, I had it beat into my head how to manage deconfliction and stay out of the way and how to avoid needing to do defensive maneuvering.

Taking a plane and crew to an Air Wing Fallon opened my eyes to how a lot of the contracts were worked out. We always filled out the VAW and VAQ nerd quorum and drank with them at the o-club. That crew telling the c2 bubbas they don’t work for them is bullshit, and I hope someone pressed them pretty hard for that in the debrief.

 

[Brett327]

Not trying to call you out, but I think this varies heavily on communities. I would be willing to be any attack platform has seen shit go sideways more than you would like to believe.

How often do you actually employ live kinetic ordnance?

Of course, and dropping JDAM or firing rockets is very different than A/A or standoff A/G. VAQ squadrons usually do 2 missile shoots for work-ups (120 and AGM-88). It's not a lot, but it's an apt comparison w/ VP. I would imagine that VFA guys all have to drop a certain amount to meet T&R wickets, so they obviously have a different mindset than VP.

 

[Gatordev]

For all its faults, it's still less absurd than the AF. It's more like HSL with more useful flight time, better pay, and better deployment sites.

After working with a lot of VP dudes for a tour, I'd disagree. I was amazed to find a community more bizarre than "HSL."

How about we say it's more like East Coast HSL?

 

[xj220]

Sometimes I think VP is really like what we like to joke how the AF is when it's clear the Air Force is way cooler and less annoying.

After working with the AF, I’d agree to an extent. They certainly do some very cool stuff and have a lot of capabilities we lack as a community. That being said, they do some weird shit. Seriously, why do they roll their sleeves the way they do?

 

[Recovering LSO]

That crew telling the c2 bubbas they don’t work for them is bullshit, and I hope someone pressed them pretty hard for that in the debrief.

you’re assuming they showed up to the debrief.

 

[sevenhelmet]

you’re assuming they showed up to the debrief.

Exactly- we debriefed on the ship. As the strike lead, I questioned aggressively, but got nowhere. One of the squadron XOs even indicated I might have been too aggressive about it, in that from the P8s point of view, we were in their way, and calling to light them up for a NMAC would burn a bridge unnecessarily. ?

Slightly in his defense, the coordination that I tried to shepherd during mission planning may not have gotten to the right people due to a multitude of communication issues (CANES...), and what I'll politely call the "staff mentality" . That being said, the P8 ops weren't on our hot sheet either, so that sword cuts both ways.

 

[croakerfish]

Exactly- we debriefed on the ship. As the strike lead, I questioned aggressively, but got nowhere. One of the squadron XOs even indicated I might have been too aggressive about it, in that from the P8s point of view, we were in their way, and calling to light them up for a NMAC would burn a bridge unnecessarily. ?

Slightly in his defense, the coordination that I tried to shepherd during mission planning may not have gotten to the right people due to a multitude of communication issues (CANES...), and what I'll politely call the "staff mentality" . That being said, the P8 ops weren't on our hot sheet either, so that sword cuts both ways.

Yeah that’s some pretty significant amplifying information.

 

[sevenhelmet]

Yeah that’s some pretty significant amplifying information.

Yup- the part that sent me over the edge was the "we don't work for you". We had plenty of sharp eyes and radars out there to mitigate the traffic conflict in real-time, although it never should have occurred.

tl;dr this threadjack, coordination issues between the Boat and virtually everyone else continues to be a major headache during afloat ops. It hasn't gotten better with the introduction of CANES.

[/threadjack]

 

[Angry]

Yup- the part that sent me over the edge was the "we don't work for you". We had plenty of sharp eyes and radars out there to mitigate the traffic conflict in real-time, although it never should have occurred.

tl;dr this threadjack, coordination issues between the Boat and virtually everyone else continues to be a major headache during afloat ops. It hasn't gotten better with the introduction of CANES.

[/threadjack]

TBH there is no reason a P-8 should have been anywhere near you. None what so ever. My pucker factor when operating close to the CSG is always insanely high, because we know we don't have extensive experience with the Airwing and are the fat/slow kids just looking to get into trouble. If a NMAC did actually occur, then the P-8 wasn't using their multitude of sensors correctly. The AC/MC always has the ability to knock off training because spidey sense says "this doesn't feel right" - sounds like they should have used that discretion.

That being said - if we get tasking to work in close to the ship, that's where we will be. I don't know if "we don't work for you" was an attitude problem (likely) or a rude way of saying "we report to a different CWC than you do so we apologize for being here but we can't move without authorization" (less likely). Both are possible though. I have never received the type of pre-flight deconfliction you've mentioned providing from a Strike Lead prior to a flight. That's not a statement about you/yours but more that the communication channels between your staff and our TOC have always had issues, as you mentioned.

 

[webmaster]

My pucker factor when operating close to the CSG is always insanely high, because we know we don't have extensive experience with the Airwing and are the fat/slow kids just looking to get into trouble.

This is the end result of a community that’s been forced to be a jack of all trades, flight hour reduction, ISR and overland mission tasking for over a decade and getting away from core mission sets.

@Angry I’m not being critical of your comment, it’s just amazes me how far the community has drifted from normal ops working with the CSG or in close proximity. For some reason I thought that with the P8 showing up there would be more interaction with CSGs and not less. As for the TOC, fucking pick up a damn phone and do your job it’s not that fucking difficult to get info from a CSG especially when operating as part of an exercise. Light em up for giving you a shitty brief ....

Oh well, back to reminiscing about P3s .....

 

[Angry]

This is the end result of a community that’s been forced to be a jack of all trades, flight hour reduction, ISR and overland mission tasking for over a decade and getting away from core mission sets.

@Angry I’m not being critical of your comment, it’s just amazes me how far the community has drifted from normal ops working with the CSG or in close proximity. For some reason I thought that with the P8 showing up there would be more interaction with CSGs and not less. As for the TOC, fucking pick up a damn phone and do your job it’s not that fucking difficult to get info from a CSG especially when operating as part of an exercise. Light em up for giving you a shitty brief ....

Oh well, back to reminiscing about P3s .....

Preaching to the choir.