It may be "healthy" over here in helo land for now but the writing is on the wall. Regionals are starting to see that picking up helo dudes is a viable way to fill seats and many of our JOs are massively disenfranchised with the "mission". It might mean 2 years or so at a lower paying regional job but there's an avenue for rotorheads to get to the majors at their MSR as well.
-
Please take a moment and update your account profile. If you have an updated account profile with basic information on why you are on Air Warriors it will help other people respond to your posts. How do you update your profile you ask?
Go here:
Edit Account Details and Profile
NEWS Air Force leadership talks frankly about pilot retention
- Thread starter ChuckMK23
- Start date
It may be "healthy" over here in helo land for now but the writing is on the wall. Regionals are starting to see that picking up helo dudes is a viable way to fill seats and many of our JOs are massively disenfranchised with the "mission". It might mean 2 years or so at a lower paying regional job but there's an avenue for rotorheads to get to the majors at their MSR as well.
RadicalDude
Social Justice Warlord
Good.
Time for big navy to learn that their people feel the same way about service as they feel about them.
This is ten times worse than the t notch. They're just better at hiding it now.
Disagree - were you around during the T notch?
It's obviously an extreme example but these sorts of shenanigans are happening EVERY DAY in the fleet. Maybe they're not happening at your command and if so, good on you for doing it right. Is it an institutional flaw? The example I gave probably isn't but the fact that EVERYONE who has ever served in any service has at least five stories similar to it shows that Military Culture has a high propensity towards chickenshit fuck-fuck games. Granted this has happened since time immemorial as I'm sure Roman Centurions argued over who got a better parking spot for their chariot. But, that doesn't change the fact that it's something that everyone in the service needs to deal and live with. People with normal jobs don't have stories about parking lot drama and rug dances over zipper height.
If someone enjoys their role in the Service I think it's easy to look past, ignore, block out, etc a lot of the nonsense that comes with the service. When I was ACDU I did my best to shrug it off, roll with it, and not let it ruin my perception of the Naval service. And I think it worked for me but it took an active role on my part to stay away from the drama. If folks aren't in good commands or let this stuff get to them I can easily understand the allure of looking at jobs that just require you to work 40hrs a week and don't require the immense level of sacrifice that a continued role in the Service requires.
Spekkio
He bowls overhand.
I'm pretty sure that many, many people in COMCIVLANT have dealt with terrible bosses that have weird hang-ups. Yes, civilians *can* quit, provided their economic circumstances and job prospects elsewhere allow it.
Seemed like there were a few misconceptions on the side of the Representatives.
What that subcommittee needed was someone who just got out instead of taking the bonus, someone who took it, and a FO from one of the legacy air carriers. Then they can compare the money and lifestyles. Anyone can go to APC and move the sliders around to see that the Navy can't compete with the airlines for money. But bigger than that is to compare lifestyles. I'd love to see a DH at 14 years compare his quality of life and lifestyle vs. a FO with 5 years under his belt. Who is taking their work home more and who is spending more time at home?
I also wonder where the services get all of their data. I've never filled out one of those surveys. I will say that when I had to make the decision to take the bonus, the #1 reason to stay was the pension, by a longshot. If I had to make that decision now, with the airlines as hot as they are and the bonus still only being $25k max/year I don't think I would make the same decision. The questions about whether the bonuses are working were a bit silly. People may not stay for the money but the money helps mask the smell of a lot of the shit floating around.
For the administrative distraction part, I'll list a couple of things on my list of things I hate about the Navy:
1. We suck at admin. Our admin departments suck at admin. I have 4 websites to look at for my awards and none of them are currently the same, or correct. This isn't just squadron admins but CAG admins and wing admins as well. Make it 1 website and hold admin departments accountable when they don't submit the stuff they are supposed to.
2. I have to update 3-4 systems a year with information that should be in DEERS. NFAAS, ADHOC, page 2..... How about this, give me one place to update my info and that is it. I know they are supposed to be rolling out My Navy Portal but the Beta version just looks like it links to the other pages. Get rid of the redundancy.
3. Since we moved to OOMA, I now have to log OOMA and then SHARP instead of just one like I could with NALCOMIS. Get rid of the redundancy.
4. One year I did SAPR training 4 or 5 times because every Admiral up the chain of command knee jerked and directed training will be completed. So we did more SAPR training. Get rid of the redundancy.
5. I've had to do IA forms 4-5 times a year because of moving on and off the boat and ADP can't live without them. Get rid of the redundancy. It's already been brought up but I don't need information assurance training every year. I've learned what I can and cannot put into a govt computer. More redundancy.
6. Let me travel without making it a giant pain in the ass. If I want to go to Bali I have 3 different websites to fill out, 2 separate forms and then a mandatory brief and debrief.
7. Get rid of ASAP requirements unless something actually warrants it.
8. I don't yet know what's going on with NKO. Is all of the training still required but it doesn't need to be logged? What a waste. We need to take a good hard look at the mandatory NKO training. Get rid of 70% of the shit.
That's a good start for a short list. All of these things may seem small but when you add them up they start to weigh more. All of this fluff gets in the way of the chapters and updates to TOPGUN, multiple NATOPS, SOPs, Instructions, pubs and so on that I have to be intimately familiar with to do my job. Throw on top of that a ground job or 50 E-5 evals and the administrivia really starts getting in the way.
If you then tell me that I can't leave my house or even drink in my own home because some 2nd class 1000 miles away got a DUI , then breathalyze me every time I come onto or leave the base, it really starts to wear down on moral. That shit won't fly at Delta.
If we want to make things better then let the warfighters be war fighters. There may come a time in the near future where we will realize that it is far more important for me to know the ins and outs of the latest timeline than being up to speed on the latest Navy social experiment.
If you think the civilian world is free of chickenshit tasking, mindless requirements, and stupid office and corporate politics, then god bless you. My first civil job off AD featured HR scolding people about wearing untucked shirts and a married couple was reprimanded for holding hands in the break room. If you're working for a defense contractor you get silly corporate requirements on top of silly DoD requirements. And as annoying and patronizing as our various sensitivity and diversity trainings are, they're nothing on your average corporate HR.
The Navy could do a lot better about how we run all these requirements, but it's not unique to the service.
The Navy could do a lot better about how we run all these requirements, but it's not unique to the service.
Oh for fucks sake. Of course there are bad bosses and weird offices all over the world but it's nowhere near as pervasive as it is in the Services. A civilian could read "Caine Mutiny" and think that it's a made up story but everyone who's ever served has had to deal with some version of CAPT Queeg or the strawberries. Every single command I was ever part of had some level of strawberries; some more than others.
RadicalDude
Social Justice Warlord
Were you around during WW2? Does that disqualify you from talking about it? Don't gatekeep with me here.
This is not a one time failure to access enough aviators or an issue of too much early attrition... this is a cultural shift among the officer corps. I truly think it's going to end up being a much bigger and longer lasting issue than too few folks in a year group.
This needs to be repeated and written and preached at every level, at every pay grade, until this "idea" finally sinks in and the stupid fucks that run our government and military finally get it. FWIW - I do think Secretary Mattis gets it. And yes, until the war fighters have enough jet fuel and spare parts to stay current and lethal, I'll continue to be "disgusted" by gender reassignment surgery and counseling.
I don't think it will sink in until we fight a near peer and start losing people who are up to date on their Cyber Awareness Challenge, are Chart the Course rockstars, have verified their dependents in NFAAS, and know all the proper buzz words to put into their E-5 evals but don't have a fucking clue how to properly employ their weapon system.
Spekkio
He bowls overhand.
I can't speak to your personal experiences, but I think we're getting into the realm of apples and oranges if we're going to compare corporate and military leadership. A command and even DH level leader in the corporate world has direct control over who works for him. If those low-mid level managers can't pull their heads out of their ass, get their work done, and keep their area of the company running you fire them and move on.
In the Navy, you get what you get and if you have a particularly weak DH/DIVO/chief, you are stuck trying to squeeze blood from a stone. That fabled '90% of your time is spent on the bottom 10%' axiom. There are mechanisms to 'fire' said personnel for general weak performance, but without gross wrong-doing it is a long process that requires a substantial paper trail.
So yea, a 'leadership technique' like withholding liberty due to repeated failure to complete clearly communicated assigned tasks on time wouldn't fly in the civilian world, but that's because you would just sack the employee and move on - or presumably hire someone who is experienced and competent enough to handle the job in the first place.
Okay, so you'd rather have a fleet full of people leaking classified information and people whose dependents won't get notified and/or paid if their loved one passes away in the line of duty?
PS: No one gives a shit what the text of an E-5 eval says; if they don't know how to employ their weapons system, they won't do well on the rating exam, won't get an MP/EP, and thus won't promote to E-6.
Last edited:
RadicalDude
Social Justice Warlord
Well, I'm still disgusted that breeders get more BAH and sep pay simply for pushing out a few kids and that I have to pay for orthodontics out of pocket, but the Navy will fund essentially unlimited pregnancies.
But we all have our pet peeves, I guess.
Ehh...
While I agree with your overall anecdote, big civilian corporations have the same issues with regard to removing personnel as well. HRs can be a paperwork nightmare with lawsuits and all that come with it. The big difference is that once that person is removed, they are no longer responsible for paying them beyond severance. In the military it takes gross negligence or criminal activity to separate some one and said person is usually tucked away doing menial jobs till retirement at a higher headquarters or low impact unit....or they find a way to retire them early. Smaller more mom and pop establishments...? Yeah they're probably not bound by the high visibility nature of running a multimillion/billion dollar company. So Uncle Fred can shit can people with less impunity than CEO/COO at XYZ corporation.
Conversely, I have seen COs at every level (Squadron/Battalion, MSE, etc) remove DHs or Company commanders for preformance or other reasons. Not saying it doesn't happen in the private sector but it's not always a grass is always greener case. The big problem is putting those personnel in that position in the first because "everyone has to get a chance."
My civilian world is free of the chickenshit.
Any training I do is directly related to flying and is scheduled and compensated.
I never see my boss unless I fuck up. And I haven't fucked up yet. Hell other than taking 5 minutes to complete a one paragraph bare facts incident report, I never even hear a peep from the company when I've diverted for any reason to include maintenance issues, weather and unruly passengers who don't want to spend $12 for a blanket. I even had a pax zip tied about 2 years ago and I never heard a word on that either.
No politics unless you're trying to get into management. Don't like an instructor, put him on your no fly list. Don't like the CP, take your union rep with you if he calls you and let him handle it.
My civilian world does have plenty of jackassery amongst friends and on various websites...
I guess this is just another reason to....
