Sailor Sits During National Anthem on Base

[Gatordev]

Why does that change the process of adjudicating an offense? Does the fact that it's in the media make it service discrediting? I don't know, frankly, but you still start at step one of the process. This isn't a murder case.

When you first mentioned Chief involvement, I wasn't thinking DRB. Makes more sense now.

So is there a threshold for something to be a discredit to the service? Or is it one of those, "I know it when I see it" things? Technically, I'd argue that a DUI is a discredit. And is there an additional article for discredit?

I'm not advocating kicking her out of the Navy or even reduction in rank, assuming she doesn't have a history and doesn't continue down this path. But the fact that her single act (basically Article 92) also made it to the national media makes the offense slightly more...offensive.

 

[Recovering LSO]

Let's be careful about going down the "if it makes it to national media it's more 'discrediting'" road. The Navy's shoot first - investigate later mentality ought to give us enough reason for caution there.

 

[Treetop Flyer]

If also argue that there's a difference between something "making it" to the national media, and deliberately filming something to make a statement.

If someone gets in a bar fight and it makes the news, I don't think a harsher punishment is necessary over what a normal fight gets. If someone films themself kicking someone's ass and uploads it to social media to make a political statement, it's a little different.

If she was just sitting down, someone would verbally correct her and that would have been the end of it unless she decided to press on. Since she did it to attract attention, an attention grabbing response is warranted in my opinion.

 

[Uncle Fester]

If you really wanted to take her to mast - Art 134 would seem to cover it. And extra duty in the form of performing morning and evening colors for 45 days would seem appropriate.

However, since this was clearly a bit of staged, look-at-me social media "I'm famous like that football player guy" plea for attention, what she's really in need of is some calibration that she is not entitled to use her uniform to advance personal political causes. Because that seems to be the root problem here...not that people don't like her opinion or don't agree with her cause, but that she used her status as a member of the armed forces to advance it.

 

[Gatordev]

Let's be careful about going down the "if it makes it to national media it's more 'discrediting'" road. The Navy's shoot first - investigate later mentality ought to give us enough reason for caution there.

If also argue that there's a difference between something "making it" to the national media, and deliberately filming something to make a statement.

If someone gets in a bar fight and it makes the news, I don't think a harsher punishment is necessary over what a normal fight gets. If someone films themself kicking someone's ass and uploads it to social media to make a political statement, it's a little different.

RLSO, I was more asking with the mindset that echos what Treetop is saying.

 

[Recovering LSO]

gotchya.

 

[robav8r]

I posted this picture on FB honoring 9/11. After so many long years of war, of which many of you have participated in first hand, the idea that we have a Sailor willing to so ignorantly disrespect our flag, is, I think, why so many on this board are so passionate about creating some added "pressure" in her life and career. I could care less about about the method of punishment she receives, hell, if she receives any at all. But I wonder how a conversation about patriotism, honor and sacrifice would unfold with the widow in the picture below and the misguided Sailor.

 

[Flash]

...I think some people are instantly inclined to think a severe punishment is appropriate because they don't like what she did. I can understand that, but when you break it down, she failed to follow a regulation/order/instruction/etc. Do we take every Sailor to mast for not following the rules? Depends, doesn't it? The organization also has to be fair and consistent.....That's why there's a process for this. Start with DRB and the CPOs. Is she combative or does she realize she's made a big mistake? Are there extenuating or aggravating circumstances? If after all of this, she needs to go to mast, so be it. I'm just concerned that many people are jumping right to the last step in the process.....

After some thought I am inclined to agree that NJP to start is a bit harsh and other steps should be taken before then I don't think this is comparable to most offenses of a similar nature since she doesn't just break a regulation/order/instruction/etc., she deliberately flaunts doing so in the most public manner. It isn't the mere fact that it is public doesn't make it especially bad though it is an aggravating factor, it is the deliberate act of doing it that makes it worse than any 'ol standard offense.

 

[nittany03]

I'm generally in favor of other options to be exercised before NJP, but I don't really get the value of Mast without some form of punishment awarded through NJP.

COs shouldn't have to flame spray or put on a show (unless they're actually making an example of someone), that's XOI's job.

XOI gets the documentation required to establish pattern of misconduct if they choose to continue to fuck it up.

Because everyone knows damn well that the XO can't award punishment. Conversely, perhaps going to the razor's edge of getting your balls crushed, only to have a last-minute reprieve by the one man or woman authorized to grant one, might be necessary to get through to what a former poster here would call a "young skull full of cottage cheese." The disciplinary process is equal parts law and theater. A DRB is a formally an "investigatory" procedure, even if it also is a good tool for getting all the Chiefs and the offender in one room, so they can do their Chiefly magic and make the person realize what an idiot they were.

And XOI doesn't mean shit for "pattern of misconduct" ADSEPs. You need NJP + Pg13 counseling then violated by a second offense + award of a second NJP for the second offense to process for pattern.

 

[insanebikerboy]

In other news, there was apparently a fist fight at the 32nd street base theatre when some chuckleheads decided to sit during the anthem prior to a movie being played.

 

[Treetop Flyer]

They play the anthem before a movie?

 

[Flash]

They play the anthem before a movie?

Every base I have been to a movie at no matter the service.

 

[Pags]

So I'm in no way condoning this individuals behavior but I'll ask the first legal question: Is there actually a written law/rule that says all service members shall rise for the national anthem? Or is it one of those things we all assume there's a rule that says this because it's what we've been taught?

Second, just because you joined as a red-blooded patriot who always stood for the national anthem doesn't mean that everyone else did. Perhaps some clear instruction on expected behavior in uniform is what's required. If properly delivered it might change this persons outlook on life/service/the nation, etc. at the very least sending her to sea to fight the nations' wars might be the very education she needs to gain some perspective.

 

[Randy Daytona]

So I'm in no way condoning this individuals behavior but I'll ask the first legal question: Is there actually a written law/rule that says all service members shall rise for the national anthem? Or is it one of those things we all assume there's a rule that says this because it's what we've been taught?

Second, just because you joined as a red-blooded patriot who always stood for the national anthem doesn't mean that everyone else did. Perhaps some clear instruction on expected behavior in uniform is what's required. If properly delivered it might change this persons outlook on life/service/the nation, etc. at the very least sending her to sea to fight the nations' wars might be the very education she needs to gain some perspective.

http://www.public.navy.mil/surfor/documents/united_states_navy_regulations_chapter_12.pdf

1205. Procedure During Playing of National Anthem.

1. Whenever the National Anthem is played, all naval service personnel not in formation shall stand at attention and face the nations] ensign. In the event that the national ensign is not displayed, they shall face the source of the music, When covered, they shall come to the salute at the first note of the anthem, and shall remain at the salute until the last notes of the anthem... Persons in civilian clothes shall comply with the roles and customs established for civilians.

2. The sane marks of respect prescribed during the playing of the National Anthem shall be shown during the playing of a foreign national anthem.

 

[Pags]

http://www.public.navy.mil/surfor/documents/united_states_navy_regulations_chapter_12.pdf

1205. Procedure During Playing of Nationsl Anthem. 1. Whenever the National Anthem k played, al I naval ssrvice psrsonnel not in formation shal I stand at atksntion and face the nations] ensign. In the event that the national ensign is not displayed, they shall face the source of the music, When covered, they shall come to the salute at the first note of the anthem, snd shall remain at the sslnts until the Isst nets of the anthem. Persons in forrrrstioo m-s brought to order arms or callsd tmattention ss apprnptita. The formation commander sbafl face in the direction of the ensign or, in the abaencs of the ensign, shsll fats in the direction of the music and shall render the appropriate ssfuts for the unit. Perzmns irr formation participating in a ceremony shall, on command, follow the procedurs prescribed for the ceremony. Persons in vehicles or in boaIs shall follow the procedure prescribed in the following article for such persons during colors. Persons in civilian clothes shall comply with the roles snd custams estsblishsd for civilians. 2. The sane marks of respect pmsmibed during the playing of the National Anthem shall be rihown during the playing of a foreign national anthem.

Word.

I assume the actual reg isn't full of typos.