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WWII history and tactics

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
...The situation in east Asia today is, I would submit, fairly similar to Europe around the turn of the 20th century. Booming and rapidly developing economies, new powers emerging and competing with older established powers, large investment in military infrastructure by everybody to keep up with everybody else. Defense spending as a percentage of GDP is rapidly accelerating in all the countries on China's periphery, and it's not because jets and destroyers are cool. They want to trade with China, but they do not want to be controlled by China as a result. That means boosting their own spending, forming alliances and increasing cooperation, and snuggling up to the US - whom most of them view as at least the lesser of two weevils.

China great at making trading partners and a lot of folks money, especially in the Far East. What they haven't been the greatest at is making friends and allies, their 'Middle Kingdom' attitude in some foreign relations endeavors is causing friction, especially combined with some countries' long memories of past Chinese aggression towards them (Vietnam in particular). So yeah, a lot of similarities to pre-WWI Europe though with significant differences as well.
 

rotorhead1871

UH-1N.....NAS Agana, Guam....circa 1975
pilot
That's the exact same argument everyone was making circa 1905...there could never again be a major European war, because all their economies were tied so closely together that it would be financially disastrous. You saw how that panned out.

The situation in east Asia today is, I would submit, fairly similar to Europe around the turn of the 20th century. Booming and rapidly developing economies, new powers emerging and competing with older established powers, large investment in military infrastructure by everybody to keep up with everybody else. Defense spending as a percentage of GDP is rapidly accelerating in all the countries on China's periphery, and it's not because jets and destroyers are cool. They want to trade with China, but they do not want to be controlled by China as a result. That means boosting their own spending, forming alliances and increasing cooperation, and snuggling up to the US - whom most of them view as at least the lesser of two weevils.

given china or the US to have as a relationship with.....most still choose the US....as far as kicking off ww3......IMO, the big world brawls are over for now.....and to start it....
there is no one to play the nationalistic serb....because there is no nationalism at stake...just economic stuff....leaders are also well aware that war will be instantly devastating....for no potential gain. Unlike the romanticism surrounding war that consumed europe around ww1, countries are fiber optically connected now and leaders although egocentric.....sans NK.....know that war makes no sense....there is just no upside....at this time....now there will be the spratly crap, and the middle east hates...but big wars with huge commitments of men, machines and destruction ....have passed us by........wars now....will be fast.., explosive, and rather quick to resolve..

everybody has more fun and can keep the populous spun up.....by acting outraged about the other guys stuff and capability.....and that will keep the defense capabilities up and the war guys happy.......discretion is always the better part of valor.....everybody lives....everybody gets paid and makes retirement...
 

Treetop Flyer

Well-Known Member
pilot
given china or the US to have as a relationship with.....most still choose the US....as far as kicking off ww3......IMO, the big world brawls are over for now.....and to start it....
there is no one to play the nationalistic serb....because there is no nationalism at stake...just economic stuff....leaders are also well aware that war will be instantly devastating....for no potential gain. Unlike the romanticism surrounding war that consumed europe around ww1, countries are fiber optically connected now and leaders although egocentric.....sans NK.....know that war makes no sense....there is just no upside....at this time....now there will be the spratly crap, and the middle east hates...but big wars with huge commitments of men, machines and destruction ....have passed us by........wars now....will be fast.., explosive, and rather quick to resolve..

everybody has more fun and can keep the populous spun up.....by acting outraged about the other guys stuff and capability.....and that will keep the defense capabilities up and the war guys happy.......discretion is always the better part of valor.....everybody lives....everybody gets paid and makes retirement...
I didn't read any of that. Are sentences too much work?
 

Sonog

Well-Known Member
pilot
Back onto thread topic:

I've always found the Battle of Midway highly fascinating. I've studied the battle throughout my years and have read the excellent book "Incredible Victory" by Walter Lord several times, and it's still difficult to keep track of the timelines and events that transpired throughout the battle. It truly is incredible how much was left to chance when those brave pilots were taking off given only a general coordinates where the Japanese fleet was expected to be.

One thing I've always pondered though is, did the Japanese fleet really need to withdraw after losing their carriers? Could they have pressed on and attempted to locate and close to within range of the US carriers with their big guns? Remember, the US had zero battleships, the Yorktown was sinking and the air wings suffered devastating losses especially the VT squadrons. Could the US have effectively kept the Japanese battleship group out of range with their reduced air power? The Japanese probably felt completely blind and naked without their carriers, so was lack of reconnaissance and eyes on the US fleet the driving factor here? I know the battleships like the Yamato were precious assets, but it seems in hindsight the Japanese held them way too close to their chest, when they could've been deciding factors early in the war.
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
...One thing I've always pondered though is, did the Japanese fleet really need to withdraw after losing their carriers? Could they have pressed on and attempted to locate and close to within range of the US carriers with their big guns? Remember, the US had zero battleships, the Yorktown was sinking and the air wings suffered devastating losses especially the VT squadrons. Could the US have effectively kept the Japanese battleship group out of range with their reduced air power? The Japanese probably felt completely blind and naked without their carriers, so was lack of reconnaissance and eyes on the US fleet the driving factor here? I know the battleships like the Yamato were precious assets, but it seems in hindsight the Japanese held them way too close to their chest, when they could've been deciding factors early in the war.

Without air cover the cruisers Mogami and Mikuma that had sortied to shell Midway were caught out and hit hard by U.S. aircraft the next day. While their striking power was diminished the two US carriers left along with the aircraft at Midway were still a potent force and could have sunk or damaged even more of the Japanese fleet.
 

Randy Daytona

Cold War Relic
pilot
Super Moderator
The Japanese plan did seem to be too complex and not allow for mutual support. If the Imperial Fleet had combined, and the battleships and cruisers screened the carriers, one wonders how many aircraft would have gotten through. For that matter, if all of the Zero's had not been chasing torpedo bombers on the deck and had stayed at altitude, how many dive bombers would have gotten through. Not to take away any bravery, but we had a lot of good luck.
 

Sonog

Well-Known Member
pilot
The Japanese plan did seem to be too complex and not allow for mutual support. If the Imperial Fleet had combined, and the battleships and cruisers screened the carriers, one wonders how many aircraft would have gotten through. For that matter, if all of the Zero's had not been chasing torpedo bombers on the deck and had stayed at altitude, how many dive bombers would have gotten through. Not to take away any bravery, but we had a lot of good luck.

Exactly. Its incredible the result of the next few years were pretty much determined by the luck of our dive bombers finding the Japanese carriers at just that perfect moment of chaos on the decks, fuel and bombs everywhere. If I recall correctly those boys were pretty much on bingo fuel when those carriers appeared below them.
 

Randy Daytona

Cold War Relic
pilot
Super Moderator
Iowa vs Yamato - mano a mano. Interesting article. I would tend to agree that the Fire Control would be the most important determinant.

http://warisboring.com/articles/duel-of-the-superbattleships/

4964.jpeg


4968.jpeg
 

Randy Daytona

Cold War Relic
pilot
Super Moderator
Thought it was a good photo: USS New Jersey leading USS Missouri - Desert Storm? Lot of other good ship photos (UK, Germany, etc)

uss_new_jersey_bb_62_underway_by_desertstormvet-d8bjxcb.jpg


HMS Duke of York
hms_duke_of_york__king_george_v_class_battleship__by_desertstormvet-d8nui3a.jpg


KMS Graf Spee
kms_graf_spee_and_hms_resolution_and_hms_hood_by_desertstormvet-d8ood38.jpg


French battleship Richelieu
french_battleship_richelieu_by_stephenbarlow-d99b06c.jpg


u_s__navy_warships_wwii_by_desertstormvet-d8u30f0.png


battleships_of_the_u_s__navy_by_desertstormvet-d8tq22n.jpg
 

rotorhead1871

UH-1N.....NAS Agana, Guam....circa 1975
pilot
very cool pics!!.....the US ships are the best looking for sure. the Graf Spe is just plain ugly though. BTW..it would have been so cool to be an observer at Leyte Gulf!!....that must have been some fine times.
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Thought it was a good photo: USS New Jersey leading USS Missouri - Desert Storm? Lot of other good ship photos (UK, Germany, etc)

uss_new_jersey_bb_62_underway_by_desertstormvet-d8bjxcb.jpg

The New Jersey wasn't in Desert Storm, she was actually decommissioned in the middle of the war, the Missouri and Wisconsin were the only two battleships that took part in that war. The USS Long Beach is right behind the battleships, her superstructure is very distinctive.

KMS Graf Spee
kms_graf_spee_and_hms_resolution_and_hms_hood_by_desertstormvet-d8ood38.jpg

Not just the Graf Spee, the two ships in the background are the HMS Resolution, darker gray and in the middle, and the HMS Hood, in the rear, at Portsmouth for King George IV's coronation in 1937.
 
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