maybe their aviation units have it all figured out. My comment was about the larger organization, Big Army - of which I have entirely too much exposure at this point.
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SECNAV to Implement Sweeping Changes
- Thread starter usnavymle
- Start date
I have worked with many Army aviators and they have struck me as professional, serious and competent folks. But they are much more specialized and focused than the other services and without serious General Officer representation there have been some very poor decisions that have very adversely impacted Army aviation over the past decade. Big Army doesn't really seem to care since aviation is ancillary to most of the leaders but it hampers the service as a whole.
It isn't that folks aren't exploring new ideas it is that the idea with the Navy has been tried and didn't work out so well with LDO's or CWO's. If managed correctly they both could have done better as programs but they don't fit well in Naval Aviation as a whole well, and they likely wouldn't with the Marines or Air Force either. Why? Because aviation in central to their mission where in the Army it isn't. It matters when the folks in charge of the air war are among your most experienced as they usually are in the Navy, Marines, and USAF but not in the Army.
@Flash The vast majority of us simply wanted a job flying in the military - not to be the captain of a ship or even command a squadron. I just wanted to be a flight instructor or an FCF pilot for 20 years and retire comfortably. Why is that so evil? Why does there have to be such a link to being a professional officer as opposed to just being an airplane driver - which is far more rewarding. I can tell you all those other parts of the fitrep that were "officer like qualities" were boring boring boring. You don't get it.
You're living in a Peter Pan universe where nobody takes responsibility for sustaining the organization that allows you to fly airplanes in the first place. That doesn't happen without a lot of hard work by dedicated people who are committed to the future of this business. Where are we supposed to resource the leadership component of Naval Aviation under your model? Based on the JOs I see in my community, they're all hungry for quals, experience and leadership opportunities beyond their JO tours. I see Department Heads showing a real impetus for shepherding our institutional priorities - interested in requirements, acquisition programs and leadership positions at the squadron, Airwing and Strike Group level.
It's you that doesn't get it.
Or they're all just doing that shit because that's what they think/know they have to say/do to get their 20. I'm pretty sure there's plenty of people around here that would be just fine with flying and not having to be the acquisitions officer for (insert bloated government program here) or spending years of their life riding a desk at the pentagon. There's a reason that everybody who does those shitty jobs are just dreaming of the day they get back in the cockpit.
That is the truth, but where is the love? Lately there are not even half a dozen jobs that will get you prompted to O-4. Where is the payback for "sustaining the organization" at the O-3 point in your career? And despite fixes supposedly in the works, it won't get better fast enough. Even O-4 to O-5, we are talking relatively few of the billets aviators need to fill that give you solid paper for excellent promotion prospects. With so few routes to a final career rank of O-5 or O-6 the Navy will be lacking diversity in those important senior billets you speak of like acquisition, requirements, senior staffs, etc.
How many Class Desks, GFTDs, ROs, etc. do you know personally to draw such a conclusion?
I figured out early on (pre-commission) not to project my view of the Navy or my career goals onto others. I happen to fall within the camp Brett described. I have friends that want just to fly and others who learned in their JO tour that they don't value flying or the Navy enough to stay in past MSR.
What's not cool is projecting your absence of big-Navy interests onto others, then assuming they're full of shit and just trying to "get their 20" if they work hard, take tough/important jobs, or espouse the party line.
^ You talking to @jtmedli or @HAL Pilot ....?
I don't understand why we're having this discussion.
If you don't like the career path or lifestyle the Navy or Marines lay out for you then fucking vote with your feet. A good amount of Marine Aviators seem to be doing that nowadays. Plenty of opportunities out there for college educated individuals with a strong work ethic.
If you don't like the career path or lifestyle the Navy or Marines lay out for you then fucking vote with your feet. A good amount of Marine Aviators seem to be doing that nowadays. Plenty of opportunities out there for college educated individuals with a strong work ethic.
Obviously, I was directly replying to jtmedli, but I suppose it would apply to HAL's thoughts too.
I've seen enough examples of what engineers think is good for pilots to know that we absolutely need tactical operators filling non-flying acquisitions billets. I'm lucky enough to have a flying AC billet, but I can honestly say that while I am looking forward to being in the fleet again, my day-to-day fulfillment currently comes more from my ground work than from getting a few extra flight hours this month.
Truth.
Just want to fly? Go be a professional pilot out in the world. Fly bush in AK, long line in OR, LEO, airline, rig pilot, EMS, etc. there are tons of jobs out there for people with military aviation training.
Just want to fly and still have a thing for sage green? Then go Guard.
Don't care about flying and just want a 9-5? Get out and get a job doing something you think might be interesting or that has a sweet pension or whatever. I was flying SW a little while ago and there was an advertisement for owning a mosquito deco ting franchise that prominently featured a guy who I knew from the Fleet.
@Hotdogs is right. There's no harm in leaving the Service if it's not your cup of tea.
I think it's precisely because of the reasons that IKE described. Obviously, at the end of the day, people will and should vote with their feet. One of the responsibilities of leadership (and I don't think we in Naval Aviation do a very good job at it) is teaching our JOs and DHs the value of being a good steward for the institution that allows us to do all the things we inherently like about Naval Aviation. People sign up for this business for all kinds of reasons, and I understand the mentality of someone who would just fly for 20 years and won't impugn their motives. Speaking as an individual, I derive a greater satisfaction in knowing that I've also worked hard to preserve the institution, which strengthens our national security. It should be a natural progression in this profession.
As IKE pointed out, there seems to be a disconnect with some folks who are unwilling or incapable of understanding this distinction. That is the leadership failure at work here.
I was being a bit generic when I used the term "all" in regards to that statement but I don't know too many pilots who long for the days when they're put out to pasture so they can manage some PMA-something.
What bothers me about this is the bigger problem here. For some extremely strange reason, in naval aviation it's become shameful and 'bad for your career' if you actually enjoy flying and want to do it on a regular basis. Think about it. Every time some noob comes in here and says he just wants to fly we shit all over him like there's something wrong with doing what you love. Or every time some officer says "I don't want that (insert shitty disassociated boat/pentagon/joint fuck you job here)" he gets shit on by big navy. Shouldn't we protecting our own? Shouldn't we want people who actually like flying and care about being good aviators? Shouldn't we be recognizing openly that being a shooter on the USS Congressman has nothing to do with making you a better aviator or even officer really? Or is it that we're all just butt hurt that we had to do that job once upon a time so therefore everybody else has to serve their time too and if they don't do what we did then they must be a shitbag who doesn't care about big navy as much as we do?