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Buy or rent

wlawr005

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
I've bought and sold a house on active duty. I rent now, and I like renting better, although I only have 7 years left in the Navy and that plays a big factor. I don't want to get stuck somewhere when I retire.

FWIW, take a look at your financial situation and see what makes sense. Don't sacrifice anything to own a house. Most (maybe all) of the military Donald Trump types that I know are either single, have rich parents and were fortunate enough to not accrue any debt in this life, or are married to a doctor. Yes, there are exceptions, but not many.

You pay your money and you take your chances. Renting is absolutely the easiest way to go for sure. I'd also recommend living in an area for at least a year before you buy. You never know what you're gonna learn about a place once you actually move there.

Real estate is a market best suited for saavy investors with tons of capitol who are able to diversify and are willing to take a loss. I don't personally fall into that category, but I know tons of JOs who think they do.
 
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zippy

Freedom!
pilot
Contributor
That number refers to enlisted servicemembers making it to 20 years; the number for officers is 49%.

I've heard historically it's 40% for Os, but like the stock market, past performance doesn't indicate future gains... Promotion rates to O-4 for aviators are at historic lows right now and there's nothing that says they're going to get better any time soon.
 

subreservist

Well-Known Member
I've heard historically it's 40% for Os, but like the stock market, past performance doesn't indicate future gains... Promotion rates to O-4 for aviators are at historic lows right now and there's nothing that says they're going to get better any time soon.

I'm surprised the number is that "high" for officers. I wonder if that stat is for pensions overall (active & reserve) or just active? If it's just active, retention wouldn't seem like the problem some have made it out to be...
 

Pags

N/A
pilot
Jax and Whidbey are fleet concentration points for certain communities.
But not to the extent that SD and NOB are. You could stay at one of those locations for an entire career and still punch all of your tickets.

I imagine Jax for VP comes close, but you'd have to be an FRS/WTU guy to make it work. If you're not a chosen one then off you go to the VTs for your shore tour. Even if you are a chosen one you have to leave to go to the boat.
 

zippy

Freedom!
pilot
Contributor
But not to the extent that SD and NOB are. You could stay at one of those locations for an entire career and still punch all of your tickets.

I imagine Jax for VP comes close, but you'd have to be an FRS/WTU guy to make it work. If you're not a chosen one then off you go to the VTs for your shore tour. Even if you are a chosen one you have to leave to go to the boat.

VP and VAQ in Whidbey and VP, HSC and SWO (along with all the associated support command pipelines).

It goes back to your perspective audience for rentals. There are more than just Officers who need a place to live. There are plenty of enlisted folk who have made a complete career in Jax, Whidbey, Kbay etc and many Officers who have the majority of their tours at one of those locations, and also plenty of locals who live in those locations for their entire lives.

Any of these people can live in a place you own while you go off on a tour in a different location should it be required.

For example, I purchased my current home from an Enlisted SEAL, my neighbors range from locals who own, locals who rent, first and second and third generation immigrants who own their first and second homes, a coastie senior enlisted guy with a family who rents, married SEALs and Pilots who both own and rent and snake ranch of first tour SWOs around the corner who rent and a guy who works for a shipping company who rents. It's quite the variety of people living in my neighborhood.

I've owned and rented out properties in heavily military areas over the past 10 years, and I've only ended up having someone from the military rent my properties once, and I don't really count them because we're related. Otherwise it's always been locals or civilian transplants who have ended up living in places I've owned but decided to rent vice selling when the opportunity presented itself.
 
Don't have much advice for you since I'm still waiting to see how my house buying gamble works out. I'll give one piece of note though: if you think you're going to have a bunch of time to fix up a place that needs some TLC during your first sea tour, you're smoking crack.
I totally agree.
 
Gentleman, I appreciate all your comments and advice. This is very helpful now I have a place to start researching.

To keep this going, a different thought to investing in real eatate, my father mentioned the other day that if he were me he would buy a duplex in Utah (where he lives next to the college). Rent out both sides, use one door to pay the mortgage and the other door to pay him to keep tenants in there and in ship shape. One can be had relatively cheap (there are even fourplexes in my price range) Such that I could pay the mortgage out of pocket in an emergency where neither door is occupied. Meanwhile, my family and I rent throughout our Navy career using bah. Any left over bah goes into principle on the duplex. Someone else is building me equity and I have the flexibility to move as the Navy deems fit. My wife is nurse so extra income shouldn't be a huge deal. When we go to retire or leave the Navy we have, hopefully as the housing market comes back in several years, some substantial equity that we can play with for our real end home.
Thoughts?
 

zippy

Freedom!
pilot
Contributor
There are decent duplexes on Jax, or houses with rental apartments over the garage in the Riverside avondale and San Marco as well,

Multi-plex units definitely tend to keep you in the black re: income vs expenses.
 

Pags

N/A
pilot
VP and VAQ in Whidbey and VP, HSC and SWO (along with all the associated support command pipelines).

It goes back to your perspective audience for rentals. There are more than just Officers who need a place to live. There are plenty of enlisted folk who have made a complete career in Jax, Whidbey, Kbay etc and many Officers who have the majority of their tours at one of those locations, and also plenty of locals who live in those locations for their entire lives.

Any of these people can live in a place you own while you go off on a tour in a different location should it be required.

For example, I purchased my current home from an Enlisted SEAL, my neighbors range from locals who own, locals who rent, first and second and third generation immigrants who own their first and second homes, a coastie senior enlisted guy with a family who rents, married SEALs and Pilots who both own and rent and snake ranch of first tour SWOs around the corner who rent and a guy who works for a shipping company who rents. It's quite the variety of people living in my neighborhood.

I've owned and rented out properties in heavily military areas over the past 10 years, and I've only ended up having someone from the military rent my properties once, and I don't really count them because we're related. Otherwise it's always been locals or civilian transplants who have ended up living in places I've owned but decided to rent vice selling when the opportunity presented itself.
I think we're talking two different things. You're talking about potential renters. In that case, I agree with you. Both areas have lots of potential renters.

However, I was talking about the OPs chances of staying in either area for a career.
 
Lots of people make big profits in multi-unit. The concept makes a ton of sense. After all there is only one roof to fix and total vacancy is unlikely, to ease debt service concerns. I'm just a flyer like the rest of you but I will say among my rentals are two multi-family and they are not raining gold on me. The reasons that they are no more profitable than single family for me are that:

- Multi-unit homes tend to be in less desirable neighborhoods than similarly-priced single family homes
(Leading to lower quality schools, tenants, and appreciation upside)

- Multi-unit homes tent to attract renters of a lower caliber in my experience
(Mine have disproportionate "normal wear and tear" on turnover, higher turnover rates than single family, and generally more drama)

- Multi-unit homes are expensive right now as cap rates are decreasing nationally and there is no yield anywhere

- Significantly higher insurance costs

A smart buy on a stable, modern, single-family in an excellent neighborhood doesn't look as good on Excel or over beers, but after a few years somehow it holds its own against the churn and circus of multi family.

It's not the absolute rent income, multi blows everything else away, but for some reason stable, dual or high income, responsible young families tend toward single family, and how-did-that-stain-get-on-the-ceiling-johnson ends up in my multifamily.
 

zippy

Freedom!
pilot
Contributor
I think we're talking two different things. You're talking about potential renters. In that case, I agree with you. Both areas have lots of potential renters.

However, I was talking about the OPs chances of staying in either area for a career.

As a VP guy, his chances are probably just as good to he able to stay in Jax or Whidbey for an entire careers as yours was to Stay in Norfolk or San Diego as a help guy. There are ways to do it, depending how far off the traditional command career path one is willing to go (the joint tour being the X factor). There are sea tour, shore tour and disassociated sea tour options available to the OP that would require minimal changes to their pattern of life relative to them and their family keeping the same residence the entire time if they chose to make it a priority.


It sounds like your thinking of the stereotypical AD URL career path boat tour requiring the OP to move to a place with a carrier as a required wicket to promote and stay in. There are ways around it as a VP guy, depending how much career risk one is willing to take in order to do so. With the way the O-4 boards are going these days, there's really not that great of an incentive to stay on the traditional path if one doesn't want to. There's not much reward for being the whipping boy anymore, other than looking back with regret for not taking the jobs that you wanted and still FOSx2 for O-4 like the majority of your peers.
 

zippy

Freedom!
pilot
Contributor
Lots of people make big profits in multi-unit. The concept makes a ton of sense. After all there is only one roof to fix and total vacancy is unlikely, to ease debt service concerns. I'm just a flyer like the rest of you but I will say among my rentals are two multi-family and they are not raining gold on me. The reasons that they are no more profitable than single family for me are that:

- Multi-unit homes tend to be in less desirable neighborhoods than similarly-priced single family homes
(Leading to lower quality schools, tenants, and appreciation upside)

- Multi-unit homes tent to attract renters of a lower caliber in my experience
(Mine have disproportionate "normal wear and tear" on turnover, higher turnover rates than single family, and generally more drama)

- Multi-unit homes are expensive right now as cap rates are decreasing nationally and there is no yield anywhere

- Significantly higher insurance costs

A smart buy on a stable, modern, single-family in an excellent neighborhood doesn't look as good on Excel or over beers, but after a few years somehow it holds its own against the churn and circus of multi family.

It's not the absolute rent income, multi blows everything else away, but for some reason stable, dual or high income, responsible young families tend toward single family, and how-did-that-stain-get-on-the-ceiling-johnson ends up in my multifamily.

Agree with much of the above, multi-family properties have their own pluses and minuses and are an opportunity to diversify your realestate portfolio depending on what your perspective goals and priorities are.

Some multiplexes are are the equivalent of buying into an income stream when it comes to their long term appreciation rate when purchased in areas, while others have a lower ROI rates but are still appreciating at a rate comparable to local SFRs in the desirable areas they're located. Those areas do exist, in today's market but you do have to look for them.

Insurance is expensive with any rental property, especially if you own in a high risk area (which unfortunately seems to be any place where there's water nearby... Not exactly avoidable as a Navy guy).

Wear and tear isn't always low with Single Family Residences. The worse case of tenant destruction my family personally experienced was a case where a tenant burnt down (and killed their 14yr old daughter in the fire) my parents would be retirement home while mom and dad were on their Mando PCS overseas pre-twilight tour (government gig).

Each person owes it to themselves to do their research before truly taking the plunge into realestate investing, just as they should with any other investment opportunity. Owning realestate can become an expensive hobby if one isn't careful.

Good Realtors and property managers are worth their weight in gold.

My personal thoughts/experience on realestate investing:

I initially bought when the market was strong and became a buy, hold it, and rent it type of person after the housing market bubble burst on the national level and I would had to have sold my house, car, dog and your firstborn child and then brought $100k to the bank to walk away from ownership of my townhouse if I wanted to get rid of it. The upside was that the place always stayed rented (literally from the day I decided to put it on the market for rent to right now I've never had a day where a tenant didn't occupy it).

When the market stopped dropping i started to resent the idea that I had spent no less than $60k on rent on other peoples properties with nothing to show for it, meanwhile I had my rental property that hadn't recovered to a market value where I could sell it and break compared to what I bought it for, but my stream of tenants built me $50k of equity in it through their payment of my mortgage over the years. I got the idea that I was going to buy again at my next duty station, researched the market heavily, decided on where I wanted to live, how much I needed to spend to get a place I liked to come home to, but the market rents for the neighborhood would cover the mortgage (because I've covered the difference between rental income and mortgage out of pocket before and that totally sucks). I searched until i found a turn key property meeting my criteria, turning down a couple of really nice project homes in phenomenal neighborhoods and nice houses in nice neighborhoods where rents wouldn't covert the mortgage. The place I'm in now will rent for my PITI and HOA total. I decided that I was willing to shell out a 10% property managers fee for an asset I spent zero dollars on acquiring during the purchase process, with the exception of the home
Inspection.

Several years ago Promotion tides shifted and an O-4 retirement looked like it wasn't going to happen based on the %s and I started looking for another way to generate passive income in retirement to offset the loss of that calculated income. I had a buddy whose family had experience with multi-family income properties in an urban environment and they spent a couple years scouring the country looking to buy another place to fit what they wanted. They happened to find a property in a place I was previously stationed and familiar with. I decided that what they said sounded good, but wanted to watch how it worked out for them for a while. It worked out so well they bought a second property later that year.

By the end of the first year of their ownership of the two properties, I sat down with him and he was kind enough to show me the #s of what they invested in the properties, rates of return, rent rolls, vacancy rates, delinquencies, repairs etc. and by this time there was a 3rd property up for sale in the complex so I flew down and checked it out and I ended up buying a 4th property from an estate with and partnered up a member of my family (Which could be a terrible idea for some people) who could actively participate in the management process for me while I was deployed.

Fast forward a couple years and I have a mix of single family residences and multi family units in my portfolio.

Is it always easy being a landlord? No.
Is it always fun? No.
Do you always have excess cash handy to make it rain? Yes, if you're a P-3 guy and you're on deployment. Otherwise, no.
Does it diversify your investment risk and exposure? Yes.

A financial advisor I used to work with was a champion of the idea that every person should have 3 income streams they plan on living off of later in life, so if one dries up there's still Money coming from somewhere else. You often see guys who retire from the military in their late 30s and early 40s as living examples of this in practice. I elected to make realestate one of those income streams for me.
 

zippy

Freedom!
pilot
Contributor
What an advantage - it's like getting the blue card checkride scenario a week in advance!

Absolutely, the VP mentality didn't set in well with him.

I totally let him do all the leg work and watched to see how it worked out for him then rode his coattails after he blazed the trail. There are actually a few VP guys who own properties in that area now.
 
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