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The great Helo debate

We're facing a similar problem to what you guys are describing, namely are we maximizing our training time or are we wasting flight hour? I tend to think most line units waste a lot of time, but that only became clear to me after I went to weapons school. We're getting ready to publish a large change in the way the AF trains new pilots in the squadron.

Pags has a great point about saving .2 at the end to hack out EP type stuff instead of wasting an entire sortie to devote to EPs. Let's face it, EPs are admin that we're expected to know how to do. Yes, they're VERY important, but they're not the mission.

Do you guys have simulators?
 
Pags said:
If you fly twice a week, that's eight flights a month. If you do one auto or one instrument approach during each flight, you'd have done at least four approaches and four autos.
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For my first fleet squadron (and your first) this would mean you were probably one of the high time guys for about the last year to year and a half I was in the squadron, if you weren't the constant FCP. The majority of pilots were averaging less than 10 hours a month when not on deployment and homeguard was dumping needed hours on the Dets, where auto's or instrument approaches could be problematic to impossible on most flights. The other issue I saw was due to the new requirement for Level III across the board to be eligible for command. With the lack in hours, hours were being pulled from the LT's that needed the quals to get O-4's multiple quals so they would be competitive. Multiple LT's deployments were pushed back because the plan to get them their quals just in time to deploy did not work out. Then the O-4's would have multiple quals and fly the majority of tactics training flights while the LT's with only one Level III qual flew less often. The rich got richer and the poor got poorer. The requirement for Level III across the board to screen seemed to favor HSc squadrons that had the advantage of squadron wide work ups and Fallon debts at the detriment to those in the expeditionary squadrons. Of course all of my observations were from one expeditionary squadron. Maybe the others are able to make it work...
 
I can't speak to the current average as I'm now on my shore tour, but for most of my time at my squadron averages were usually anywhere from 8-14 hours a month at home and 25-40 on deployment. Seeing guys on the schedule with 3-5 hours in the last 30 days was common place at home.
 
xmid said:
For my first fleet squadron (and your first) this would mean you were probably one of the high time guys for about the last year to year and a half I was in the squadron, if you weren't the constant FCP. The majority of pilots were averaging less than 10 hours a month when not on deployment and homeguard was dumping needed hours on the Dets, where auto's or instrument approaches could be problematic to impossible on most flights. The other issue I saw was due to the new requirement for Level III across the board to be eligible for command. With the lack in hours, hours were being pulled from the LT's that needed the quals to get O-4's multiple quals so they would be competitive. Multiple LT's deployments were pushed back because the plan to get them their quals just in time to deploy did not work out. Then the O-4's would have multiple quals and fly the majority of tactics training flights while the LT's with only one Level III qual flew less often. The rich got richer and the poor got poorer. The requirement for Level III across the board to screen seemed to favor HSc squadrons that had the advantage of squadron wide work ups and Fallon debts at the detriment to those in the expeditionary squadrons. Of course all of my observations were from one expeditionary squadron. Maybe the others are able to make it work...
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Go Bruce.

Huh, 15-20hrs/mo was probably average for a post cruise guy when I was in. If you were an ANI you might get a few more. BUT, there was also a period of three months when the squadron stopped flying a lot of the post cruise HACs to give more hours to the junior guys. 8-10 is pretty bad. With hours that low, each pilot really needs to squeeze the most out of each bag. If you're out just flying around and punching a qual, you're pretty much wasting hours. That's a tough place to be in.

As another data point, when the SWTP was first implemented and whole squadrons all of a sudden needed to qual everyone to deploy, it was awful. That happened between my cruises. This was also when the sierras were cracking. I think we had three or four birds in depot getting fixed. For awhile we had one aircraft and several dets worth of deployers who needed form flights. If you weren't deploying in a month, you weren't flying. Which also meant that despite being home for over a year between cruises and making HAC quickly, I didn't start the SWTP syllabus until two months before I left. I flew my check ride and then deployed two days later. When I left the squadron a year later, we had plussed up our airframes and were launching three sections at a time. Another year on and I came back for a change of command and to show off the tow bird and the squadron had twenty airframes.

My point in this is that this stuff is cyclical. Yeah, the LVL III for everyone sucks and I've heard from the Island Pride knights how many hours it's taking away from JOs. I understand the intent of the instruction, but the impacts are hard on the squadrons. But, starting this year or so, DHs with a lot more SWTP time, even from HsC squadrons, will be returning to the sea wall, so hopefully the pendulum will swing the other way. On that note, the writing is on the wall: want to be a player in the community? Get a patch.
 
[/quote="busdriver, post: 767017, member: 14271"] Let's face it, EPs are admin that we're expected to know how to do. Yes, they're VERY important, but they're not the mission.[/quote]
Bingo. Well said.

[/quote="busdriver, post: 767017, member: 14271"] Do you guys have simulators?[/quote]
Most squadrons have access to sims, but the RAG squadrons suck up most of the time.
 
Busdriver, I think we're all interested in what your community is going to do. Your new helicopter being on the chopping block certainly makes things a bit...dramatic...

This is all a good debate. My point was more that we've pushed the S-70 into tons of roles it might not be suited for. As a straight -46 replacement, maybe it was fine to do Gator SAR, Vertrep, and Love Boat cruises. Pushing it into the HS realm left us with a lot of square peg round hole problems. I hope the 53K pushes the envelope a lot in terms of new tech under the guise of a recap program, but we won't see it until they make the -60W or something.

JM, not sure where your M197 info is coming from, but it's inaccurate.
 
Average at homeguard is about 9-10 hours a month. I'm on det right now and we have 1 aircraft and 8 pilots total (6 Hac's and Two 2P's). I'm only giving 60 hours a month. I take the least as OIC and the 2p's get the most to get them close to their 500 hours. Even still the average is about 10 hours a month.

One of the issues is aircraft availability. My squadron has about 9 aircraft. This year we will have 3 dets deployed at one time. That is 5 out of those 9 gone. Put one at PMA and maybe one in phase/down and you are down to 2. Then the det in workups goes out to MUTC for two weeks and takes 3 for their HARP. There is nothing to even fly back home. Even when a det returns and you pick up 2 extra aircraft. You then only have 6 out of 9 available. 2 in PMA/Down and you are right back to 4 aircraft. Any type of mini det and 2 of those are gone. Last year I did 2 dets on the Wasp, 2 at MUTC and 1 at Ft Pickett. One of those times at MUTC, HG no kidding did not have an aircraft to fly for almost 2 weeks.

The wing says that a sierra is a sierra. That HSC is HSC. But we do not train the same. We do not operate the same. My Harp for my one aircraft det is the same Harp that an entire carrier squadron goes through. IMO they should be different. I'm not saying one is better than the other. But the playing field is not the same.

Another issue is giving flights to the weapons school guys. Yes their hours come back to us, but we you are only flying syllabus events then that is just one more person sucking up the flight time. You would think it would be a zero sum game. I fly them for 2 hours and they give us 2 hours back. Then the issue is not the hours, but the chance to fly.
 
I could understand taking extra H2Ps to sea because they have to get qualed, but why on earth do you have 6 HACs?
 
bert said:
I could understand taking extra H2Ps to sea because they have to get qualed, but why on earth do you have 6 HACs?
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It's probably to get them a HAC cruise. I know 25 was sending extra HACs to their SAR DET because they had a glut of HACs from when the NAAD shut down.
 
We could solve all these problems if we just switched half the cockpit to double-anchor billets...twice as much flight time for the pilots right?

...evil laughter in the background...
 
Pags said:
It's probably to get them a HAC cruise. I know 25 was sending extra HACs to their SAR DET because they had a glut of HACs from when the NAAD shut down.
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I get that, but I guess my real question is why bother? If you are the bottom HAC on that det you have no chance to break out at the squadron, so now everybody has less experience and you sent guys to sea out of sheer bloody-mindedness.
 
SynixMan said:
Busdriver, I think we're all interested in what your community is going to do. Your new helicopter being on the chopping block certainly makes things a bit...dramatic...
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If the new bird does get chopped SLEP the Golf is what I'm hearing, assuming AFSOC doesn't get their way. The training model we're trying to adopt is similar to how the USMC skid community structures a new guy's progression.
 
busdriver said:
The training model we're trying to adopt is similar to how the USMC skid community structures a new guy's progression.
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So, hate filled, agonizing, memorizing a bunch of useless numbers, briefing things to senior pilots that you have absolutely no experience doing, getting destroyed in debriefs and generally looking down on every other TMS/community.

Roger that.
 
Hotdogs said:
So, hate filled, agonizing, memorizing a bunch of useless numbers, briefing things to senior pilots that you have absolutely no experience doing, getting destroyed in debriefs and generally looking down on every other TMS/community.

Roger that.
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We hate each other, but we hate you more.
 
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