F-8 Crusader RAG

[FlyingOnFumes]

Historical question for the old guys: which unit was the RAG for Marine F-8 Crusaders?

I know that for the Navy, the former West Coast F-14 Tomcat RAG/FRS (VF-124 Gunfighters) was known as the Gunfighters because they used to be the F-8 RAG before transitioning to the F-14... I don't think they ever instructed in the F-4 Phantom II.... (VF-121 Pacemakers, the RAG from which the nucleus of TOPGUN/NFWS formed, was the West Coast Navy F-4 RAG?)

 

[brownshoe]

Historical question for the old guys: which unit was the RAG for Marine F-8 Crusaders?

I know that for the Navy, the former West Coast F-14 Tomcat RAG/FRS (VF-124 Gunfighters) was known as the Gunfighters because they used to be the F-8 RAG before transitioning to the F-14... I don't think they ever instructed in the F-4 Phantom II.... (VF-121 Pacemakers, the RAG from which the nucleus of TOPGUN/NFWS formed, was the West Coast Navy F-4 RAG?)

If Busybee or Rondebmar don't check in on your thread you should PM them, they were both on the west coast during that era and might be able to give you an answer. Sorry I don't know, but with the exception of Yuma detachments, I spent my time on the east coast, the only F-8 RAG I worked around was VF-174, they were in our air wing and were neighbors at Cecil.

BTW... why the question? Don't make Hugh or Ron burn up memory cells for no reason.

Steve

 

[Flugelman]

BTW... why the question? Don't make Hugh or Ron burn up memory cells for no reason.

Steve

Heh... Do they have any left??? I know I don't...

 

[Alpha_Echo_606]

BTW... why the question? Don't make Hugh or Ron burn up memory cells for no reason.

Steve

Heh... Do they have any left??? I know I don't...

That was what I was thinking too!

 

[brownshoe]

Okay you two...

May the lice of a thousand camels infest your crotch!

Hugh, Ron... Help!!!!

Steve

 

[brownshoe]

BTW... What were we talkin' about?

Steve

 

[FlyingOnFumes]

Don't make Hugh or Ron burn up memory cells for no reason.

I always thought memory was one of those "use it or lose it" things...

 

[Fog]

Let me add 2 cents to the confusion. I've just finished reading Scream of Eagles, which covers the history of naval air in the mid 60's as the Navy realized a need for a fighter weapons school that later became "Top Gun". This book - not new, published in 1990 - is a wonderful read that, warts & all, makes one proud to have been a part of naval aviation in most any capacity. It is both critical & highly complimentary of the Navy and was written by the son of an AF pilot. In all the detail of naval air it provides (considerable), he never says explicitly what the unit name of the west coast F-8 RAG was. There was something called FAGU (Fleet Air Gunnery Unit) that got closed in the early 60's and whose closing contributed greatly to the poor ACM skill Navy fighter pilots & F-4 aircrews took into the Viet Nam conflict. Apparently, FAGU was attended mainly by F-8 drivers. Maybe everyone here knows Scream of Eagles, but if not I recommend it as being as important to the history of naval air as any other book written before or since. Interestingly, before the bombing lull in 1969-70, both the Navy & the USAF had a 2-1 kill ratio in Viet Nam. After the founding of Top Gun & after the air war re-started in 1970, the Navy kill ratio went to 14-1. The AF never started a fighter weapons school during Viet Nam & it's kill ratio remained 2-1 for the whole conflict. Of course, they started Red Flag very shortly after VN when the success of Top Gun was apparent to the entire defense establishment. FWIW.

 

[BusyBee604]

Can't Remember...

Okay you two...

May the lice of a thousand camels infest your crotch!

Hugh, Ron... Help!!!!

Steve

I heard an SOS, but I can't remember where I saw it...er...left it...er what was the question???

OK, to the best of my memory, when I arrived on the West Coast in '58, the RAG program was just ramping up. The F-8 RAG was VF-124 Miramar,
F-3H Demon RAG was VF-121 Miramar, A-4 RAG was VA-125 Moffett.
When the F-4 replaced the Demons, VF-121 became the Phantom RAG.

In '61 when NAS Lemoore opened, VA-125 moved there along with all the A-4 & A-1 (AD). The A-1 RAG became VA-122 at Lemoore.

When I left the Navy, the Tomcat hadn't arrived yet, VA-125 was the A-7A/B RAG & VA-122 became the A-7E RAG at Lemoore.

To the OP: I don't know if the Marines had their own F-8 RAG or not. If not they may have used VF-124. I believe they had an A-4 RAG at Yuma (VMAT-101?).

That's my story, I may/may not stick to it!:icon_tong
BzB .....Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...cough....wheeze..zzz

 

[brownshoe]

To the OP: I don't know if the Marines had their own F-8 RAG or not. If not they may have used VF-124. I believe they had an A-4 RAG at Yuma (VMAT-101?).

Me neither, Hugh. But again, OP why the question?


Steve

 

[Catmando]

Marine F-8 RAG?

I should know the answers since I was around NKX during that period, but I don't. And my Google Fu can't nail solid answers.

While Miramar's then F-8 RAG (later becoming the F-14 RAG) was still training Navy F-8 replacement pilots in '69, '70, and '71, they were really winding down on production. And I don't remember an Marine F-8 pilots wandering around or training in VF-124, but I cannot say for sure.

FAGU (Fleet Air Gunner Unit) operated out of El Centro Yuma, training both Navy and Marine F-8 drivers in Air-to-Air gunnery, but it was disestablished in 1960. I believe a "unit" of the VF-124 RAG carried on with the training, and may have adopted the "FAGU" name.

Scanning some F-8 sites: Mofak, The Gunfighter Page, I couldn't determine a Marine F-8 Rag. My guess, they had no RAG per se, but trained at Cecil Field (VF-174?) and maybe El Toro.... or they probably threw them a how to fly the F-8 book and kicked them into the air, sink or swim.

 

[brownshoe]

Marine F-8 RAG?

I should know the answers since I was around NKX during that period, but I don't. And my Google Fu can't nail solid answers.

While Miramar's then F-8 RAG (later becoming the F-14 RAG) was still training Navy F-8 replacement pilots in '69, '70, and '71, they were really winding down on production. And I don't remember an Marine F-8 pilots wandering around or training in VF-124, but I cannot say for sure.

FAGU (Fleet Air Gunner Unit) operated out of El Centro Yuma, training both Navy and Marine F-8 drivers in Air-to-Air gunnery, but it was disestablished in 1960. I believe a "unit" of the VF-124 RAG carried on with the training, and may have adopted the "FAGU" name.

Scanning some F-8 sites: Mofak, The Gunfighter Page, I couldn't determine a Marine F-8 Rag. My guess, they had no RAG per se, but trained at Cecil Field (VF-174?) and maybe El Toro.... or they probably threw them a how to fly the F-8 book and kicked them into the air, sink or swim.

I should remember, but I don't. Fuzzy, but I think I do remember seeing Marine pilots at 174. Walt? Derf?

Steve

 

[BusyBee604]

Yeah...

... or they probably threw them a how to fly the F-8 book and kicked them into the air, sink or swim.

Thats's what happened to us. We 6 new ENS checked into VF- 94 (FJ-4M) @ Alameda in August '58. 4 months later, redesignated VA-94 & 12 brand new A4D-2s arrived on our doorstep! No room at the A-4 RAG at Moffett (just starting up). VA-125 gave a quick fam to our CO/XO/OPS, they came back & fammed us, then we deployed to Fallon for two weeks, really just famming each other!
Worked out fine tho, no incidents...really sweet flying factory fresh birds!
I remember how bad we felt as we thought we were going to be "fighter jocks". After 2 weapons deployments bombing, strafing, rocketing, low-level nav, etc., instead of practicing BORING air-intercepts, we realized how lucky we were.
BzB

 

[Derf]

I was too busy corking and uncorking mules on our line and didn't pay any attention if Marine pilots ever frequented VF 174's line at Cecil. I don't recall seeing F 8's in Yuma that the Marines flew during my TAD assignments. Only A 4's and Phantoms. Of course that was a few brain cells ago.

 

[A4sForever]

Marine F-8 RAG?

I should know the answers since I was around NKX during that period, but I don't....

Ditto ... I don't think there was a 'Marine RAG' for the F-8 ... all the early USMC F-8 drivers I knew got their 'RAG' training w/ the NAVY and then went to the squadron(s) as training cadre. The early Reserve guys actually shared their birds with the NAVY squadrons. The later guys did a lot of training in house, and worked a lot w/ the Air Wing if they were going to deploy aboard ship.

When it comes right down to it -- a RAG, per se, is not 'hard-core' necessary --- example: I got LSO-checked out in the F-4, A-7, A-3, and S-2 in CUBI during my second cruise w/out anything more than a 'verbal checkout', followed by a quick & dirty CPT and a 'monitored start' and shutdown. No ground school ... no NATOPS (except for the PCL) ... my first flight in the A-7 was a chased solo ...

When I waved 2 Marine squadrons in CUBI in preparation for about 1/2 of the pilots' initial CQ ... it was all done in house, by me.

Hell, when I went through -- nearly @ half of the Marines were getting their Wings through the USAF ... I guess they weren't too picky who they got their flight training from ....