Self Defense stories

[HueyCobra8151]

Clearly these are all matters of opinion and no one is going to change their minds based on shit someone else writes on the internet. I got it. An AR is an intrinsically very accurate platform, so IMO it doesn't make sense to get the shortest possible barrel and stock and all that to make it into some sort of CQB weapon...However, if that fits your mold of what you want out of your AR, go nuts. Enjoy.

To address the other points: 00 buck w/ an open choke I figure it will spread about an inch a yard or so. Not exactly firing from the hip and killing everything around you, but depending on the distance, maybe a little more forgiving than the fixed ~6.8mm spread of the 6.8mm AR.

Clearly people here aren't big fans of the sound of the shotgun being racked as a means of defense - that's fine. When I thought it over I decided that the drawbacks don't outweigh the benefits. "Giving away my position?" It's 3 o'clock in the morning...your average MENSA candidate will probably conclude that I am in the bedroom. And as for not having one in the tube, again, all matters of opinion, but I keep my weapons condition 3 in my house anyway.

and the sound of the weapon loading could not matter less to a doped up gang banger looking for your wife's jewelry box.

Yeah, when you give away your position and intent and the BG closes the gap and knifes your ass

Okey Dokey...

Not that it matters, but in my 2 years on embassy duty when we did exclusively nothing but train for CQB we had access to M4s, Colt SMGs (basically an even smaller M4 chambered in 9mm), M870Ps , M9 pistols, and riot shields...and our stacks were almost always shotties and pistols/SMGs.

Edit: I've shot table 3 w/ an M16 and I am not saying that it isn't a good weapon short range...I just think a shotgun is better for in the house.

 

[HueyCobra8151]

Here is a good article on 00 Buck penetrating power.

Not the "stops at the first hint of drywall" that some people act like, but considerably less penetration than a long gun round, or even a pistol.

 

[Flugelman]

It also cheats you out of a perfectly good shell that should have already been in the chamber just waiting for the safety to come off.

There, fixed it for you...

 

[A4sForever]

....That the "sound of a shotgun being racked" has some kind of tactical advantage is the most often repeated piece of garbage ....

That's what I think, too ... so I use one of these:

CLICK-CLICK !!!

 

[Rocketman]

That the "sound of a shotgun being racked" has some kind of tactical advantage is the most often repeated piece of garbage that I have ever heard.

If I ever have to shoot a shotgun in self defense the only thing the bad guy will hear is the sound of the safety coming off. I don't have kids at home and my FN SLP auto stays loaded with a round in the chamber. That's a personel choice and may or may not be right for anyone else.

I love the 870 and have shot one for years but I've moved away from thinking that the pump shotgun is the be all, end all, self defense weapon. I'm not alone in that thinking either. Most people, me included, shoot just enough to think that they know more than they do. The people that think a pump shotgun is idiot proof in the hands of an average shooter are wrong. IMHO a reliable quality auto loader like the FN SLP or Mossy 930SPX is a much better choice.

 

[A4sForever]

....I love the 870 and have shot one for years but I've moved away from thinking that the pump shotgun is the be all, end all, self defense weapon....

Yeah ... pretty much agree ... I think the best argument for pumps might be they can operate 'dirtier' and will tolerate a wider variety of loads (specifically lighter loads) ... BUT: they are next to impossible to operate one handed, are difficult to operate from a prone position, and the inevitability of a 'short-stroke' when YOU are pumped and excited can ruin your whole day ...

So I like both actions ... but semi-autos make a LOT of sense for a home defense application. If you keep your guns clean and when you've consistently run @ 200 shells through a semi-auto shotgun w/out a failue ... what else can you say about reliability ???

Different subject:

FN SLP (w/18" bbl) or Remington 11-87 Police (18" w/ mag extension & rifle sights) ... what's the consensus of the 'gun nuts' on this board ... ???

Handling ... reliability ... all the usual suspects.

 

[GO_AV8_DevilDog]

Yeah ... pretty much agree ... I think the best argument for pumps might be they can operate 'dirtier' and will tolerate a wider variety of loads (specifically lighter loads) ... BUT: they are next to impossible to operate one handed, are difficult to operate from a prone position, and the inevitability of a 'short-stroke' when YOU are pumped and excited can ruin your whole day ...

So I like both actions ... but semi-autos make a LOT of sense for a home defense application. If you keep your guns clean and when you've consistently run @ 200 shells through a semi-auto shotgun w/out a failue ... what else can you say about reliability ???

The argument for pump shotguns is really moot point for home defense. Police and Military applications mostly require a pump shotgun or a semi-auto with pump option (like the SPAAS-12) for use with low velocity less-than-lethal rounds.
As for the "they work better when they're dirty than semi-auto's" argument: when was the last time you had to crawl through the mud in your hallway?

I'm all for the "what if's" but that seems to be a little bit of a stretch for me.

But hey, what do I know, all I've ever owned was a pump and a break action. So maybe semi's do suck

 

[GO_AV8_DevilDog]

FN SLP (w/18" bbl) or Remington 11-87 Police (18" w/ mag extension & rifle sights) ... what's the consensus of the 'gun nuts' on this board ... ???

Handling ... reliability ... all the usual suspects.

A4s, as for your question,
I have a friend who owns the FN, he says it shoots real well, he likes it. Of course unless it's a consistent jammer, then a shotgun shoots like a shotgun shoots like a shotgun.

Just find something cheap that can chamber a 3.5" inch shell in the gauge of your choice, and the rifle sights have always seemed like a bit of a novelty to me on a shotgun. If a bead is good enough to hit a moving bird, then it'll work just fine for a man sized target in my hallway.

 

[A4sForever]

The argument for pump shotguns is really moot point for home defense. Police and Military applications mostly require a pump shotgun or a semi-auto with pump option (like the SPAAS-12) for use with low velocity less-than-lethal rounds.
As for the "they work better when they're dirty than semi-auto's" argument: when was the last time you had to crawl through the mud in your hallway?....

Respectfully disagree ... I've been * skooled * in and have taught tactical (police) shotgun courses a few years back, including LEO contracts, and their greatest corporate concern ... for the AVERAGE person when 'excited' ... was short-stroking a pump action. We had it happen on more than one occasion over the years in 'stress' situations w/ LEO's. The reason most PD's use pumps is that they are CHEAP on a relative basis and easier for their armorers to maintain ... and 'dirty' is the action/chamber (you know that), not the hallway. Unless you are a pig and your hallway is a pigsty.

By the way, all 3 SPAAS-12's I came across in classes were a piece of shit in all 3 classes they were represented in -- and they were operated by knowledgeable LEO's who were 'trying out their new guns'. They had constant jams & embarrassing levels of unreliability. I don't know how much longer they worked on them after the training courses, but I do know that 2 of the guys ditched 'em. So poo on your SPAAS ...

Again, with HOME DEFENSE, I think we should focus on the least common denominator, i.e., Joe Average Homeowner. A reliable, point and shoot semi-auto will be the 'average guys' best friend when things go 'bump' in the night ...

Having said that: the only guy who beat me in speed & accuracy drills while I was instructing used a pump ... I used a relatively stiff-recoiling Benelli M1 Super 90 ... so go figure.

 

[Treetop Flyer]

Can't go wrong with one of these, probably the next item on my shopping list. Remington 870 Police Magnum

 

[Picaroon]

Doesn't it make sense that whatever is lethal and reliable that you train with the most is what you should use? I mean, you aim your gun, you pull the trigger, it goes boom, bad guy goes thud. So in the stressful environment, I feel like it makes sense to use whatever you shoot the most so that muscle memory and instinct can get that safety off and that round in the chamber.

As long as you're not using the 10/22 to defend your home, most firearms will do the trick with enough trigger pulls, yes? Overpenetration sucks but the odds of your rounds actually making it to another person are pretty damn low.

 

[eddie]

Are personal defense rounds not legal in other countries? Why are they banned under Geneva (because they mess you up more?)?

 

[Rocketman]

Different subject:

FN SLP (w/18" bbl) or Remington 11-87 Police (18" w/ mag extension & rifle sights) ... what's the consensus of the 'gun nuts' on this board ... ???

Handling ... reliability ... all the usual suspects.

I own a FN SLP and love it. I have no personal experence with the Rem 11-87 so take what I say about it with a grain of salt.

I've read that the 11-87 gas system has a reputation of being slightly more finicky with the ammo when compared to some other shotguns. The Winchester SX2 and Rem 1100 are considered by many to be more reliable. I think most of this rep comes from the hunting crowd and various game loads. Regardless, I'm not so sure that would be true with the kind of heavy loads you'd be shooting with a 11-87 Police. If you plan on shooting reduced recoil buck loads (I love the Federal reduced loads) I'd check, but otherwise I'm sure you'd be good to go. Plus you'd run 200 - 300 rounds of your favorite load thru it before you considered it reliable anyway.

The Rem 11-87 (and 1100) lines have been around a long time and will have more accessories (saddles, aftermarket stocks, extended tubes, light mounts, shell followers etc) I believe the 11-87 Police receiver is drilled and tapped so you can add a pickatinny rail to mount optics if you like. It looks like a fine shotgun to me

I bought the FN SLP because it is based on the Winchester SX2 action which is one fast, tough shotgun action. Actually I'm pretty sure the FN SLP action and the SX2 action are exactly the same. (the Belgian Herstal Group owns FN, Winchester and Browning) The SLP comes standard with a very good set of adjustable ghost ring sights mounted on a pickatinny rail. It comes with an Invector choke tube equipped barrel and two chokes. You can buy additional choke tubes at any sporting goods store and they add mucho flexability. It comes standard with two different gas pistons so you can adjust the action for various loads if you need/want. Mine eats light recoil buck loads using the "heavy" piston so I've never even changed it out. 100% reliable out of the box. It's very accurate with slugs and you can tune your buckshot patterns with the adjustable choke tubes. The action is fast as hell. I can sometimes put 7 shots down range before the first hull hits the ground. That kind makes it a shoulder fired claymore and that thought makes me smile........

If your are looking at those two I'd also look closely at the Mossberg 930 SPX.

I have one and like it too. 100% reliable out of the box and significantly less expensive that the FN. They look very similar but the actions are somewhat different. The SPX has the same great adjustable ghost ring rear sight as the FN SLP and it's mounted on a standard pickatinny rail. It also gives you an extra round (8 as opposed to 7 with the SLP) It does not come with an adjustable choke but with a cylinder bore. It patterns just fine with buckshot and is plenty accurate with slugs. If you buy one be sure you are getting a recent model. Some of the first ones had canted front sights that made running out of windage adjustment when shooting slugs a problem. The new ones are fixed and Mossberg fixed the bad ones under warrenty but it was a pain in the ass. This is a great value in a self-defense shotgun and I'd buy another one in a heart beat.

 

[Rocketman]

A4s, as for your question,
I have a friend who owns the FN, he says it shoots real well, he likes it. Of course unless it's a consistent jammer, then a shotgun shoots like a shotgun shoots like a shotgun.

Just find something cheap that can chamber a 3.5" inch shell in the gauge of your choice, and the rifle sights have always seemed like a bit of a novelty to me on a shotgun. If a bead is good enough to hit a moving bird, then it'll work just fine for a man sized target in my hallway.

I agree with you on the rifle sights on a shotgun thing. They are great if you are hunting with slugs but with buckshot probably over kill.

Speaking of over kill, IMHO using a 3.5 inch or even a magnum 2 3/4 or 3 in shell as a home defense round is way WAY overkill. I probably can put 2 maybe 3 Federal Reduced Recoil 00 buckshot loads into a target before you can even stop the muzzle rise from a 3.5 in shell.

Dead is dead. Plus with a lower power load you have less over penetration to worry about and a much faster and accurate followup shot.

 

[Flugelman]

Different subject:

FN SLP (w/18" bbl) or Remington 11-87 Police (18" w/ mag extension & rifle sights) ... what's the consensus of the 'gun nuts' on this board ... ???

Handling ... reliability ... all the usual suspects.

I bought an 11-87 when they first came out. It's the standard field model so I can only speak to the functionality. With factory loads I've never had a problem but I've had a couple of load failures with handloads. I use Remington Green hulls and reload them 5-6 times. I think the chamber on this 11-87 is a little tighter than it's 1100 predecessor and the MEC shotshell loader doesn't size the cartridge as much as say a Ponsness/Warren. Just my speculation...

Otherwise the 11/87 has been good performer for me through several thousand rounds (skeet/doves).