RabidMoose
New Member
Not sure if this was mentioned yet but a really good place to start if you want to learn a lot more about packing and the legal jargon is In the Gravest Extreme by Massad Ayoob. Awesome read and pretty awesome dude too.
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Self Defense stories
- Thread starter feddoc
- Start date
HOME DEFENSE: Shotguns, pistols, carbines ... what???
If you want a weapon for CQB, why buy an AR at all? There are way better platforms out there. Shotguns come to mind immediately...
If you want a weapon for CQB, why buy an AR at all? There are way better platforms out there. Shotguns come to mind immediately...
Persistance of engagement.
Shotguns are great for about 4 rounds, then your really starting to think about what your about to do (Combat reload, drop and go to a handgun.... run).
To take a second and sound like one of "those people" if you get into a fight with one threat target in close range hey a shotgun ought to do you fine. Same reason I use a revolver for a nightstand gun, if I need to put more than 6 rounds down my stairwell to stop whatevers there I did something very wrong. Something like an AR would be a much prefered bit of firepower in a situation like say your facing a home invasion by a group of armed thugs in a Katrina like situation or in the Country where help may be a long way off if on its way at all. Wasnt too long ago where Winchester rifles were marketed as a great gun for ranchers to ward off a group of coyotes attacking their stocks or bandits raiding their property. The AR provides a modern equivilent.
I have shotguns for CQB. Remington, Mossberg, Benelli, FN and Saiga. I have AR's for CQB and I have pistols to fight my way to them.
They all do some things better than others so I keep them all around. (mostly I keep them around for fun but whatever)
How many golf clubs do you keep in your bag? More than one you say? Why in the world would you do that?
If you shooting someone in the head or chest from across the room with a 5.56, they usually die. Same with a shotgun. A 5.56 CQB platform is much more flexible than a shotgun.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14.htm
Both #00 buck and 5.56 will blow through four interior walls. If your backdrop is an exterior wall, lead is leaving your house. End of story. The difference is that for every trigger squeeze with your trusty 12ga, you've got nine projectiles leaving your house. Statistically speaking, you would have a greater chance of hitting someone two or three rooms over with buck.
Both #00 buck and 5.56 will blow through four interior walls. If your backdrop is an exterior wall, lead is leaving your house. End of story. The difference is that for every trigger squeeze with your trusty 12ga, you've got nine projectiles leaving your house. Statistically speaking, you would have a greater chance of hitting someone two or three rooms over with buck.
Godspeed said:
My home defense choice: hollow points not required ...
Lawman: For the sake of brevity I didn't quote your post, but the scenario you described pretty quickly went past the breadth of CQB - into a midrange scenario which an AR is great at.
But unless it truly is zombies you are fighting, I doubt you are going to need that much ammunition for a home invasion...
Bevo: The difference is that when you are home alone and something goes bump in the night and your adrenaline starts picking up and maybe you are shaking a bit and looking over the sights trying to get a good look at whatever it is in front of you wondering if it is your kids coming home or a bad guy looking to do you harm, you are much less likely to miss with a shotgun.
Also you don't have to worry about cheek weld, proper sight, proper alignment, breath control, etc...
Also the sound of a shotgun being racked will probably cause the whole situation to resolve itself without any shots being fired in the first place.
I like AR's, I own an AR, but I just don't think it is even close to be superior to a shotty in the home environment. Of course this is just an opinion and everyone's entitled to them. Hopefully no one has to find out the hard way which weapons really are the best for them...
But unless it truly is zombies you are fighting, I doubt you are going to need that much ammunition for a home invasion...
Bevo: The difference is that when you are home alone and something goes bump in the night and your adrenaline starts picking up and maybe you are shaking a bit and looking over the sights trying to get a good look at whatever it is in front of you wondering if it is your kids coming home or a bad guy looking to do you harm, you are much less likely to miss with a shotgun.
Also you don't have to worry about cheek weld, proper sight, proper alignment, breath control, etc...
Also the sound of a shotgun being racked will probably cause the whole situation to resolve itself without any shots being fired in the first place.
I like AR's, I own an AR, but I just don't think it is even close to be superior to a shotty in the home environment. Of course this is just an opinion and everyone's entitled to them. Hopefully no one has to find out the hard way which weapons really are the best for them...
The shot pattern of a shotgun at five yards (which is far for a home invasion) is tight. You still have to aim, and aim well.
Shooting in close with a rifle does not require any additional techniques (breath control, cheek weld, sight alignment). Put the front sight in the BG's X ring, squeeze. Lather, rinse, repeat.
MasterBates
Well-Known Member
The "you must AIM" part on shotguns in close seems to be lost on many.
I shoot enough that I don't "worry" about that shit. I just put the doughnut of death on the target and squeeze.
That the "sound of a shotgun being racked" has some kind of tactical advantage is the most often repeated piece of garbage that I have ever heard. Did the guy at the gun shop tell you that? If you are actually including "sound of weapon loading" into your home defense strategy, it pretty much negates any credibility that you could have on the subject.
I'll agree that a shotgun is a fine choice for a home defense. It is no "more safe" than a properly loaded AR, and the sound of the weapon loading could not matter less to a doped up gang banger looking for your wife's jewelry box.
Godspeed said:
It's an interesting subject with a lot of data and variables to wade thru. 9mm ball rounds are notorious for over-penetration in people and sheetrock walls. Even hollow point pistol rounds will many times over-penetrate because the hollowpoint gets filled with clothing or sheetrock. (there after acting like ball ammo.)
Like Bevo said choose your ammo wisely. The right 5.56 round is no more likely to over-penetrate than a poorly chosen pistol round.
In a shotgun low recoil buckshot is best. Most research says that #1 buck offers the best combination of penetration and number and size of shot.
This URL leads to a fantastic guide to self defense pistol, rifle and shotgun rounds. It has a lot of info on the desired amount of penetration and why.
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm
Yeah, when you give away your position and intent and the BG closes the gap and knifes your ass
It also cheats you out of a perfectly good shell that could have already been in the chamber just waiting for the safety to come off.
Huey heres my stance on Shotguns. Ive got one and its a great weapon. But Id much prefer to be in a fight with a weapon that does both the close and the far well rather then a weapon that does close a little better and far like crap. Plus even with the stock collapsed my 12 guage with only a 5 round magazine and the shortest barrel I can get without a tax stamp is still several inches longer than my AR fully collapsed. Another advantage when you try to move in tight quarters.
If you shoot enough, none of those are an issue, they become automatic.
No one mentioned penetration issues. A .223 green tip bullet with its steel penetrator will go through more shit than a load of 00 buck. I live in a "rural" environment and don't have the problem of shooting my neighbor through the wall, but it is something to consider.
Home defense- Let the debate continue!
Edit- Rocketman said penetration