Firearms Training

[FlyinRock]

Sadly I don't think the military is doing a very good job of basic marksmanship training. It isn't until a few selected for special units, that good training takes place. The sad part is, it would only take an extra few training days to bring that general training up to speed. Even the USMC is slacking off and degrading the "every Marine a rifleman". Just because you are issued one doesn't mean you are good with it. Same for pistol and perhaps even more lacking in good training generally.
It takes hits to be effective and it takes training to make hits under pressure. If a gunfight or firefight is not extreme pressure, what is?
This diatribe was prompted after watching a sniper school program on history channel or something, and the number of rounds expended for hits. Snipers were on the order of 1.5, and general grunts were someplace in the thousands? Talk about spray and pray?
I applaud those who take the time and their own money to get additional training and then do some diligent practice. Further, those who pass that on to family members are most likely the ones who will survive the longest. Well, survive the longest as free people?
There are a surprising number of shooters here who really can make solid hits on a regular and predictable basis. Some are major winners in shooting competition and probably know what I am talking about. It only takes one major confrontation when you may be required to use firearms for deadly purpose when it all comes clear and you wish you had learned more, or practiced harder.
Semper Fi
Rocky USMC Scout/Sniper Assoc #198, etc, etc
A4's - I recall a Gunny Ed Lang who shot high power but he doesn't show up on the S/S Assoc member list.

 

[nittany03]

I agree, but historically, hasn't this been the case for most armed forces? I'm sure Lee and Grant bitched about all the soldiers under their command who didn't fire, and just loaded one round after another (there's archaeological evidence to prove this).

I head to the range more or less regularly, but still take a somewhat dim view of how this would prepare me for combat, just because I've never had to shoot while scared out of my wits/running/jumping/etc. There's many ranges out there which bar such things as drawing from holsters, rapid fire, double taps, and other "combat" related drills. It may be hard for even the motivated to practice on their own.

And as much as the Marines preach "every man a rifleman," everyone else seems to believe that "low threat" troopers don't need that skill set. What is BUPERS going to say about manning issues when people start getting admin sep'd for marksmanship who are otherwise rock stars in their job? It would take significant funds to qual the whole Navy, and keep them qualled. Thus, the almighty dollar rears its ugly head.

That said, there's a reason there are armed watchstanders on board ships, so Ahmed can't storm the quarterdeck in some foreign port. But whether they can shoot or not depends on the man (or woman) holding the weapon.

 

[rare21]

this is the same case for the civilian side as well. At my police dept we have firearms qualifications every month and get paid an incentive of $45.00 bucks to show up and shoot. Even with that folks dont come over to practice. We have some range masters that will pass you just for showing up and so that you dont keep using up ammo while trying to qualify and some that will stay there and practice with you or encourage you to come by and get one on one time. In the same vein its not truly realistic at all. We're always shooting at the standing position, calm, pulse slow, take your time but hurry up, etc nothing like it will be during an actual firefight. There have only been a small number of times where we have shot from behind a car door simulating a felony stop or during low light conditions with a police car's lights and sirens going off behind you and that was all during the academy which was years ago for me. But to some departments thats fine until us as patrol go into a firefight and dont respond perfectly and public attention comes to the training our dept receives which is below par. But on the other hand S.W.A.T. gets all the training they can get their hands on even though in a worse case scenario for them to be called it'll probably be taken care of by us on patrol before they even mobilize.

 

[Rocketman]

I actually think the Marine Corps is still doing an OK job at marksmanship training. Certainly they are doing a MUCH better job at teaching practical shooting than they did when I was in.

I could lay down with a tight sling and a good prone position and make hits at 500 yards all day long with an M16A1. Problem is unless you are a scout sniper that kind of shooting bares little resemblance to real world combat shooting. It's for sure nice to be able to do and it teaches great fundamentals so it needs to remain a part of marksmanship training. We never got much training in low light or no light conditions. We never qualified with gas masks/helments on. Never trained to shoot around and thru things. No MOUNT training what so ever and I was a grunt. Different mission then.

All and all I'd still say the average Marine, regardless of MOS, is head and sholders above other services in basic marksmanship skills.

I shot expert with both rifle and pistol as a Marine but I never really felt great about my shooting until I got involved a few years ago with 3 gun. I don't shoot it much but I learned more about shooting on the move and using cover etc in two 3 gun matches than I did in 3 years as a Marine grunt. (peace time duty) I highly recommend it.

If it's important to you to learn to shoot well you can, and should, get there without big blue or green's help.

 

[Lawman]

I actually think the Marine Corps is still doing an OK job at marksmanship training. Certainly they are doing a MUCH better job at teaching practical shooting than they did when I was in.

I could lay down with a tight sling and a good prone position and make hits at 500 yards all day long with an M16A1. Problem is unless you are a scout sniper that kind of shooting bares little resemblance to real world combat shooting. It's for sure nice to be able to do and it teaches great fundamentals so it needs to remain a part of marksmanship training. We never got much training in low light or no light conditions. We never qualified with gas masks/helments on. Never trained to shoot around and thru things. No MOUNT training what so ever and I was a grunt. Different mission then.

All and all I'd still say the average Marine, regardless of MOS, is head and sholders above other services in basic marksmanship skills.

I shot expert with both rifle and pistol as a Marine but I never really felt great about my shooting until I got involved a few years ago with 3 gun. I don't shoot it much but I learned more about shooting on the move and using cover etc in two 3 gun matches than I did in 3 years as a Marine grunt. (peace time duty) I highly recommend it.

If it's important to you to learn to shoot well you can, and should, get there without big blue or green's help.

Same is true for the Army.

There are two kinds of shoot training being taught to our Soldiers. One is Marksmanship which demonstrates effective control and use of a rifle/pistol over a given range and gives confidence to a soldier that they can use that weapon in combat. Its however utterly useless for the average soldier to do anything but brag about which medal he has on his chest. The other is the training we put our soldiers through in the lanes. Hogans alley type shooting which teaches them to be much more effective and stay calm in an enviroment that is chaotic at best and it teaches them the basics of communicating as part of a team/squad. Basic training spends a week on Marksmanship beginning week 3 of training. After that the only shooting soldiers will do for the remainder of training will be Hogans alley/MOUT style training. We've even begun to teach Convoy live fire as well as IED contact and movement to contact. This is just for your average POG.

 

[Rocketman]

We've even begun to teach Convoy live fire as well as IED contact and movement to contact. This is just for your average POG.

Agreed. MUST haves for all MOSs today.

 

[Slammer2]

...three gun matches...

The NRA hosts some pretty good ones. I reccommend any fan of shooting tries one at least once in their life. They're fun and you can learn a thing or two

 

[sodajones]

As with all things in the Corps, self improvement on your own time and own dime are required.

 

[Bevo16]

The NRA hosts some pretty good ones. I reccommend any fan of shooting tries one at least once in their life. They're fun and you can learn a thing or two

I have never been to an NRA match, but would love to shoot in one.

Is there some kind of entry level division that you start in? How would I go about getting started?

 

[Rocketman]

As with all things in the Corps, self improvement on your own time and own dime are required.

Yes the Corps must.....have.....Joint.....Srike.....bird.....at....all....cost...

I fear we are on the way back to Jimmy Carter's military. No money, no training, low morale

 

[Rocketman]

I have never been to an NRA match, but would love to shoot in one.

Is there some kind of entry level division that you start in? How would I go about getting started?

There are probably a lot of local matches in your area. The one I shoot isn't sponsored by anyone. More of a club environment. Great guys, low pressure and an easy way to get into 3 gun. Mag fed rifle and pistol and an 870 is all you really need. A simi auto shot gun is better but not a have to have at first.

I'd just google 3 gun matches TN etc. Or your local gun shop might have some info.

 

[Rocketman]

I have never been to an NRA match, but would love to shoot in one.

Is there some kind of entry level division that you start in? How would I go about getting started?

Bevo here is one I found that I think is in West TN but I don't know anything else about it.

http://hcgc.net/3_Gun/index.htm

 

[Lawman]

I like the theory of 3 guy but the thing that keeps me from going are the retards that do it. Seriously if I meet one more fat ass wearing 3 grand worth of leather telling me about how his Les Baer is the greatest tactical pistol ever made Ill stab somebody. Its like you somehow managed to find every asshat on AR15.com in one place at one time. And dont tell them your military... oh hell no. Then your gonna hear all about somebodys exploits when they did something somewhere with somebody but really cant talk about it.

Just to piss people off a buddy of mine shot a 3 gun match using Ak's, a Mossburg 500, and a Makarov..... Wearing a ski mask. This is the same friend of mine who was kicked out of a prarie dog round up for using a bipod mounted FAL rapid fire.

 

[sodajones]

I like the theory of 3 guy but the thing that keeps me from going are the retards that do it. Seriously if I meet one more fat ass wearing 3 grand worth of leather telling me about how his Les Baer is the greatest tactical pistol ever made Ill stab somebody. Its like you somehow managed to find every asshat on AR15.com in one place at one time. And dont tell them your military... oh hell no. Then your gonna hear all about somebodys exploits when they did something somewhere with somebody but really cant talk about it.

I know exactly what you're talking about. They seem to come out of the woodwork and are all too eager to talk about themselves and their imaginary exploits 150 lbs ago.

 

[helmet91]

Just to piss people off a buddy of mine shot a 3 gun match using Ak's, a Mossburg 500, and a Makarov..... Wearing a ski mask. This is the same friend of mine who was kicked out of a prarie dog round up for using a bipod mounted FAL rapid fire.

EPIC.

I love it.