PAR approaches?

[S.O.B.]

I certainly have faith in them but scratch my head at the fact that the newest helicopter in Naval Aviation has no ILS. The problem with the PAR is the only place your going to find them for the most part is at naval air stations. Try doing a cross country in a Romeo in IMC.

 

[HAL Pilot]

I know of a few airlines that are required to declare an emergency per company policy if they have to do a PAR, so that might give you an idea of how much faith they have in that approach.

Just another approach at Hawaiian. No emergency, but we train for them.

Airlines are only allowed to do approaches they train for. If an airline does not train for PARs and they end up having to shoot one, then it is considered an emergency situation. It has nothing to do with trusting them or having faith in them.

We used to do them all the time to mins in the P-3 at Misawa and Adak. No one ever thought they were unusual are dangerous. It was just another approach. In fact, most pilots would choose the PAR when given the choice between it and an ILS.

 

[HeyJoe]

I'm not a pilot but will give you any info you request from the controller point of view. I'm currently active duty, air traffic controller, qualified RFC (radar final controller) which allows me to do PAR or ASR approaches.

Bolter and Dirty are right on with the currency/proficiency aspect. There are always controllers training too. That being said when our airfield is IFR no trainees are allowed to do any GCAs. If it is nasty outside there is no room for error concerning a wrong turn or incorrect glidepath call with a trainee on. That and the WX causes extra clutter on the scopes we control off of which makes it harder to get your target sometimes. One of our squadrons regularly does all day missions which result in their RTB in the middle of the night when our field is closed (no controllers present). They will almost always do a TACAN or RNAV/GPS but when the WX is bad they request controllers to come in for a PAR and hold until we arrive.

The only thing I can tell you about currency is that it seems the last few days of the month every Naval pilot and their dog request GCAs, multiple at that. I don't know what the rules/requirements are for pilots but it sure seems like towards the end of the month ALL of them are out trying to get current.

Usually, you can tell by the controller's voice how much experience is helping you out or whether you have a trainee. Experienced controllers are very, very good at getting you where you need to be. Hearing their voice on a dark, stormy night at sea is a great comfort factor.

 

[skidkid]

PAR to mins is pretty standard SOCAL flying. Marine layer rolls in while you are shooting at Yuma or the Stumps. Fly VFR on top get a PAR pick, break out at mins taxi to the CALA and download. Pretty much SOP. If there is any doubt as to the competence of the controller ask for the supervisor.
The flip side is if you are doing VFR practice approaches offer up your services for controller training scenarios.

 

[a2b2c3]

Personally, from my student experience, I love PAR's. All I need is a radio. The controllers tell me where to go. Granted it places a lot of trust in the controllers but its so much easier than tuning up an ILS and flying off an approach plate in a small cockpit with the thing strapped to your leg.

The only way a PAR would be better is if it automatically gave me needles like an ILS as well.

 

[TheBubba]

No gyro PAR into Roosey Roads at night, min fuel on the way there from Key Weird. Ugly does not begin to describe that goat rope. Broke out at about 400 and was damn glad the mountain to the south west was not in our face.

This was in the early days of the Prowler MFD's and we were getting a lot DU overheat lights so it shut down both the upper and lower units so no horizon other than the peanut and a wet compass and the BDHI's in back.

Roosy Roads was my intro to Naval Aviation. Nothing beats living under the pattern and a 5 minute walk to the beach. In PR. Great place, great times.

 

[Harrier Dude]

.... if you are doing VFR practice approaches offer up your services for controller training scenarios.

And actually fly what they tell you to fly. Then debrief them after the pass, if able.

A lot of guys shoot practice PARs VMC and either consiously, or subconsiously visually line themselves up on the runway. The controller gets no training out of it and thinks that he's got it wired, when in fact, he's misreading his scope and doesn't know it. From what I've seen in the radar room, giving a good PAR is as much art as science.

If you trickfuck the system and do their jobs for them, the next time you hear his voice may be when he's certified to be on his own and you're going down to mins. If the approach sucks it might be as much your fault as his.

Every now and then they may even ask you for some weird stuff. I was shooting practice PARs in the PRCP (the acme of east coast tactical flying), and the supervisor came up and asked me to fake a lost comm issue after I turned dogleg to final. It was VMC (night), and there wasn't anybody else out flying, so I did it. He spazzed out at first, but got it together and handled it pretty well. I think it was his checkride or something.

 

[TheBubba]

Agree with Harrier Dude...

I can't count the times I've heard "Left of course, turn left heading", which was quickly followed by "going well left of course turn right heading". The big hyaca turn was quickly followed by "goig right of course, turn left heading" and start the cycle over again.

IP debriefed controller, next pass with that controller was extremely smooth. As with us, a good debrief can help the controller.

 

[abracadabra11]

I certainly have faith in them but scratch my head at the fact that the newest helicopter in Naval Aviation has no ILS. The problem with the PAR is the only place your going to find them for the most part is at naval air stations. Try doing a cross country in a Romeo in IMC.

I didn't know that. Fortunately for us Sierra folks, we do have an ILS. And flying it perfectly normally involves 3 fingers...right thumb for airspeed, left thumb for heading trim, and left index for collective trim. Yum.

 

[FLY_USMC]

I agree with all the above, a well trained controller is absolutely amazing at putting you at the end of the runway in a position to land during a well played PAR.

On the other hand, coming from a civilian flying background, the majority of civilian pilots have no idea what a PAR/ASR is and still can't fathom why we don't have something as basic as an ILS.

Hell, I can remember asking a Hornet guy when I was a civilian, "You really don't have a weather radar!?"

 

[MasterBates]

Here is the real question SOB.

Why does the S have ILS and the R does not? Whatever happened to the "common cockpit" that was supposed to happen ?(along with the SuperHawk NATOPS)

 

[PropStop]

It's easy to hate the PAR when most of the ones you do line you up nicely on the taxiway, or would fly you into a mountain/hill. In NUW I got many a terrible PAR for practice and I was pretty disenchanted with the whole thing. One dark and stormy night...well, actually it was clear and a million, everywhere but that huge ass fog bank sitting in the valley where NAS Whidbey is located.

Long story short, i shot the approach to mins on runway 25 (which at the time was 100 and 1/4) and it was by far the best PAR i have ever been given. That controller was varsity, dead nuts on the whole way down. I broke out at about 90' as i was about to wave off, made a quick right correction, and landed it. I then removed the seat cushion from my ass.

I'm more of a fan of the ILS, because i'm completely in control then. But, if you have to do a no shit PAR, they work, I'm a believer.

 

[ac2NASTY]

And actually fly what they tell you to fly. Then debrief them after the pass, if able.

A lot of guys shoot practice PARs VMC and either consiously, or subconsiously visually line themselves up on the runway. The controller gets no training out of it and thinks that he's got it wired, when in fact, he's misreading his scope and doesn't know it. From what I've seen in the radar room, giving a good PAR is as much art as science.

If you trickfuck the system and do their jobs for them, the next time you hear his voice may be when he's certified to be on his own and you're going down to mins. If the approach sucks it might be as much your fault as his.

Every now and then they may even ask you for some weird stuff. I was shooting practice PARs in the PRCP (the acme of east coast tactical flying), and the supervisor came up and asked me to fake a lost comm issue after I turned dogleg to final. It was VMC (night), and there wasn't anybody else out flying, so I did it. He spazzed out at first, but got it together and handled it pretty well. I think it was his checkride or something.

You make an excellent point!!! I am in no position to tell anyone how to fly their aircraft being you are overall responsible for what happens but Harrier Dude brings up a very important point. When you realize you have been issued a bad turn (turn left 364, yikes!!) or we forgot to tell you to start your descent I suggest going along with it (as long as it doesn't take you into the side of a mountain) and debrief us at the end. We get qualified by our Branch Chief listening/watching us do live runs so when an aircraft does the work for us and corrects our mistakes what happens once that individual is qualified and it's IMC.

RFC is the position where controllers train first (if starting in radar). So a lot of the times the person giving you turns and traffic calls on final could possibly be the newest 18 year old right out of A school with zero experience. So if you really don't feel comfortable with the controller then please ask for the supervisor. This helps some of the newer controllers realize that it's not just a green square moving around on a big TV and motivates them to study even more and continue doing sims.

 

[Huggy Bear]

For all you hornet guys...

I have been flying hornets equipped with civilian ILS for the last 6 months, and it's a beautiful thing.

I was told once that the Navy/Marine Corps jets are already equipped with the software and plumbing for civilian ILS. It is simply a matter of actually buying the box (only $26,000). The blues have had it for years, right?

Continue to plug your community for this. I heard a few near miss stories over the years; it seems like a jet will actually have to be put in the dirt before they pony up money for this.

 

[PropStop]

Have any of you flown with that CAT IIIC ILS? The idea gives me the willies, but from what I understand the civvies do it all the time. Any input?