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VICTORY in IRAQ?? What is Victory?? Is there any substitute for VICTORY??

A4sForever

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
Since the CBU thread has kinda been heading in this direction of late, I'm interested to hear what the current generation of trigger-pullers (air/sea/land) thinks about this issue that the politicians are loathe to deal with -- let's try and keep the discussion as a-political as possible so as to not step on any toes ...

Check fire: Make that current, previous, and future generations of trigger pullers -- w/ all the usual caveats. What's your take??

Just the facts, Ma'am ... just the facts.

And learned opinions, of course. :)

This is not a test ....
 
To me, a stable country that is not a terrorist hotbed. Strategic stability, and a smaller occupying/hosted force.

Get the country more along the lines of Jordan than Iran or Saudi on the political arena.

From a strategic force standpoint, US troops stationed there like Germany or Japan, but not having to undergo constant combat operations. Give them stability while getting their economy and infrastructure operating normally.

Realistically, in that part of the world, with the local value of human life what it is to some of the LIPs, there will always be some death brought upon us when we are there for the foreseeable future. That sucks, but it is the truth.

When dealing with the terrorists and non state actors, it is better to deal with them THERE than to deal with them here.
 
Speaking as a student, so armchair philosophy at its finest, I dont think there can be any real victory until we really win the hearts and minds or kill them all, or get the Iraqis to want to take responsibility.

We arent going to win the hearts and minds. Those we are fighting against are zealots. The dont want to listen to reason or pay attention to any public works we are doing. Look at the abortion debate, im sure most of us have seen that once or twice. Did anyone ever change their mind? Didnt you see a lot of pointless agruments on both sides that it seemed like people were going to never give up no matter how stupid? I just dont see how we can do this.

Kill them all is the most foolproof but least PR friendly. :D You can clamp down all you want but insurgency is just a tough nut to crack. Heck, thats how we beat th Brits.

I have no idea what the Iraqi political climate is so rather than talk about something i have *no* idea about, ill just stop here.
 
Victory = Doing China's dirty work so they don't cash in their T-bills, A strategic chess piece in the Middle East, Pro-"I like money and the things it buys", a continued de-valuation of the dollar to bring smaller countries in the region to the world market, and control of the Oil to repay the hemorrhaging of U.S capital abroad (hmmmm 5 bucks a gallon, maybe we already are???) . The best possible outcome...

We will not overcome the radical idealism of the fanatics through peace talks and compromise, about as ambitious as creating steam with french fry lard and banana peels.
 
Complete, absolute, and total destruction of the enemies will to resist.

Followed by occupation and destruction of their cultural ideology. And if necessary? *Their faith system.*



The number one sport in Japan is baseball.

The word "nazi" is illegal in Germany.

60 years after American armor rolled through Berlin we still maintain "bases".

And 60 years after Hirohito's address ended Japanese cultural ideology? American warships home port on the Japanese mainland.

We could learn alot from our grandfathers.
 
Japan was such a great post-war success because of Gen. MacArthur: He understood the Japanese people and adapted to it, using the Emperor to help steer change in the Japanese culture. It wasn't just "do as we say" it was portrayed to the Japanese in a way that better enabled them to 'save face', and modern Japan is the result.

IMHO, Iraq has turned around because Gen. Patreus used the ^^ example of MacArthur to help steer the Iraqis away from AQ-style terrorism. They don't see us as friends and comrades yet, but the majority don't see us as SOBs and soulless invaders anymore.
 
Victory is completion of objectives. The problem is that the top level cannot agree on what the objectives are. Too political? Nah, it's not supposed to be political, but it is the leaders who are making it that way. If somebody in a position of civilian leadership could just say THIS is what we NEED, then just get the hell out of the way and NOT change their minds, then we could accomplish it. Sure there's an ever changing threat, but it is being muddled by an ever changing objective.

What needs to be done to secure peace in Iraq? Is that more the question? Well, we do opposite of what we did in Vietnam. We do what we started to do early in Vietnam but got away from (thank you Army and McNamara) which is to start in one place (Anbar province) and we "win the hearts and minds" of THOSE people. By the way, winning hearts and minds is actually giving security, healthcare, and a stable life to the people. THE PEOPLE ARE THE BATTLEFIELD. WINNING THE PEOPLE IS WINNING THE BATTLE. The insurgency is also fighting on that battlefield. HE WHO WINS THE PEOPLE WINS THE WAR.

What do I mean by that? If WE win the people, then the insurgency will whither and die.

Where it went wrong in Vietnam, instead of stabilizing the local populace in one place, then spreading out like an inkblot very slowly, we tried to save them real quicklike and then moving on. The insurgency there was like sand through our fingers and we couldn't keep the PEOPLE secure, therefore we couldn't keep the BATTLEFIELD secure. We cannot make that mistake again.
 
Jackass said:
So you want to destroy the cultural ideology and faith system of a billion people? Do you think that is realistic?



You don't equate peace with victory?
Click to expand...


Question #1: If necessary Sir, I want Victory at any cost, not to be confused with "want to destroy anything"

Question #2: No, Sir.
 
Jackass said:
You don't equate peace with victory?
Click to expand...

mmm. There is a difference. For instance, we can lose then there would be peace. So what I really meant was secure victory the best way.


In an insurgency the skull crushing is usually ancillary. Fortunately we are REALLY good at that part. We got that down perfect, but just crushing skulls until there arent any left to crush isn't going to win this one. Like I said in my first post (and in other places on this board) the way to crush the WILL of an insurgency is to win the local PEOPLE. Once the insurgency can't get their food, water, and personnel from the populace, WE WIN.

...It is slow and mundane, I know, but it is the truth as best I can tell.
 
Zissou said:
Complete, absolute, and total destruction of the enemies will to resist.

Followed by occupation and destruction of their cultural ideology. And if necessary? *Their faith system.*
Click to expand...

Who is the enemy? One day they are our enemy, the next they are our 'friends'. Ever heard of the 'Awakening' movement? Allies now, before......

What exactly do you mean by *'faith system'*? Their religious faith? If not, please explain.

Zissou said:
The number one sport in Japan is baseball.
Click to expand...

And it was before we got there.

Zissou said:
And 60 years after Hirohito's address ended Japanese cultural ideology?
Click to expand...

You sure about that?
 
My personal opinion on Iraq.... not the GWOT in general. We went, ostensibly, because of WMDs. (whether or not you believe Valerie Plame and Dick Armitage) The bigger picture is that it's a damn important piece of real estate, vis'-a-vis' Iran....and probably more importantly, leverage against the wahabbis in the Kingdom of Saud. I don't know what will constitute a "victory" that will satiate the A.D.D. American public that needs their news pre-digested and spoon, err, spin fed to them.... I have a feeling that we probably will, (or should) have a substantial presence for a long, long time. I think that equating the duration/timetable of our presence there to victory or defeat is myopic. I can't fucking wait until we tap the oil fields in ANWR, the coast of of Brazil, and North Dakota.
 
Flash,

I know when intellectually out gunned, but Ill give it a shot anyway Sir.


Q#1: The enemy is anyone hostile to American Forces occupying the GWOT Battlespace.

Q#2: Yes, Sir I do mean their religious system. If their core value system is in conflict with the US Constitution I believe it to be in conflict with human decency.. And that is as directed by the Commander's Intent. I wouldnt go on my own personal Crusade.

Q#3: If baseball was their national pasttime before our Victory? Then I change my statement to " we wrote their Constitution and laws after WW2"


Standing by to have my opinion torpedoed Sir.

Q#4: I'm not SURE about much Sir. But Im pretty sure we ended the Shintoist belief in devinety of the Emporer as a living God.
 
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