http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080224/britain_biofuel_flight.html
Interesting. Publicity stunt? Sure. What the hell can it hurt though?
Interesting. Publicity stunt? Sure. What the hell can it hurt though?
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Running on coconuts...
- Thread starter scoober78
- Start date
MasterBates
Well-Known Member
Coconut oil can also be used to make Bio-Diesel, which was being investigated as a possible base for essentially making Bio-JetA when I was there.
Big technological problem we had at GMI was the viscosity was about a #2.5-3 Diesel and had gel point issues, which are fine in blends for cars and trucks (Standard diesel is #2, Kero/JetA is #1, bunker oil is #6 to give an idea) but to get the viscosity down to normal jet fuel ranges and and the pour/cloud point suppressed to the point where it could be used straight was a bastard. As in they had not figured it out yet. And no "easy" (read: economically feasible) solutions had been found yet (2001).
From and energy content point, its great stuff. Both in BTUs per pound and gallon.
It's about 1.07 times a energetic per unit volume as Kero/JetA and 1.12 as energetic on a pound basis.
It worked great in our land based turbines, and diesels but we did not have to deal with high altitude cold problems.
Big technological problem we had at GMI was the viscosity was about a #2.5-3 Diesel and had gel point issues, which are fine in blends for cars and trucks (Standard diesel is #2, Kero/JetA is #1, bunker oil is #6 to give an idea) but to get the viscosity down to normal jet fuel ranges and and the pour/cloud point suppressed to the point where it could be used straight was a bastard. As in they had not figured it out yet. And no "easy" (read: economically feasible) solutions had been found yet (2001).
From and energy content point, its great stuff. Both in BTUs per pound and gallon.
It's about 1.07 times a energetic per unit volume as Kero/JetA and 1.12 as energetic on a pound basis.
It worked great in our land based turbines, and diesels but we did not have to deal with high altitude cold problems.
Alright Professor Frink, you do realize what your avatar says, right?
MasterBates
Well-Known Member
I was the redneck that used the "Allen theory" on most thing in the lab.
You know.. MORE POWER!
Screw the math, put it to 11.
You know.. MORE POWER!
Screw the math, put it to 11.
corvairdroptop
Registered User
Well what are the thoughts on large-scale adoption of bio-fuel for aviation? Is that remotely feasible?
Greenpeace, consulted by the BBC (who else would), is up in arms about the effect on food prices. I have to think that this is justified when corn is being used...but is the land used for coconut really useful for staple crops? Plantains maybe?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7261214.stm
I think the faith in hydrogen vehicles might be inflated right now, but at least we can power automobiles off of batteries. How long is the takeoff roll for a battery-powered 747?
Greenpeace, consulted by the BBC (who else would), is up in arms about the effect on food prices. I have to think that this is justified when corn is being used...but is the land used for coconut really useful for staple crops? Plantains maybe?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7261214.stm
I think the faith in hydrogen vehicles might be inflated right now, but at least we can power automobiles off of batteries. How long is the takeoff roll for a battery-powered 747?
MasterBates
Well-Known Member
Remember, any battery/electric units have to get their juice from somewhere. In most countries, that will be fossil fuel.
If we had widespread, plentiful and relatively cheap nuclear power, either better fission designs like France or fusion units, then Hydrogen and Electric start looking more attractive. Not for their efficiency, but because they make the nuke power portable.
If we had widespread, plentiful and relatively cheap nuclear power, either better fission designs like France or fusion units, then Hydrogen and Electric start looking more attractive. Not for their efficiency, but because they make the nuke power portable.
MasterBates
Well-Known Member
Oh, and biofuels can often be made out of food byproduct or non food grasses such as switchgrass. The problem is that switchgrass and other celluiods to biofuel need specific enzymes that only work with one cultivar.
Whereas oils, such as Soy and Coconut, are a fairly simple chemical reaction that can be done economically on large scale.
You can make diesel from Algae but the funding and science behind it is huge.
Whereas oils, such as Soy and Coconut, are a fairly simple chemical reaction that can be done economically on large scale.
You can make diesel from Algae but the funding and science behind it is huge.
corvairdroptop
Registered User
I'd say 500,000 flights per year with a biofuel supply chain would be large scale.
I wonder if it's possible to power the industry on biofuels. It's clear that we can't run an entire economy off of them, but the prospect of the aviation sector running off of biofuels is intriguing, and much more relevant than flex-fuel automobiles.
My reference to electrical storage was a little sarcastic; cars can more easily incorporate electrical power. If an airplane is going to carry passengers...we're wedded to combustion. I would think that the automobile industry's inertia in favor of battery power hinders a liquid hydrogen infrastructure for aviation. If either one of them should have an interest in biofuel, I would say it's aviation.
MasterBates
Well-Known Member
It would take the industry switching over. Remember Virgin needs gas at both ends, not just their hubs. And then you have to have dedicated trucks or underground piping to keep Coca-Jet separate from Dino-Jet.
I see the most likely situation is a blend that takes some of the Dino-Jet out of the mix, much like how most commercial BioDiesel is sold. (usually as a 5-80% blend)
I see the most likely situation is a blend that takes some of the Dino-Jet out of the mix, much like how most commercial BioDiesel is sold. (usually as a 5-80% blend)
Biodiesel is shiat. WTF is the point?
"Yay, we reduced our independence on foreign oil, but now food costs me 5x more because all the farmers decided to stop planting grains and start cashing in by planting corn."
Biofuel took over 1/3 of America's corn harvest this year. And it is inefficient: one biofuel tank of gas represents enough corn to feed a person for an entire year.
We need to stop the ridiculous biofuel subsidies in the US.
Sorry, /rant off
"Yay, we reduced our independence on foreign oil, but now food costs me 5x more because all the farmers decided to stop planting grains and start cashing in by planting corn."
Biofuel took over 1/3 of America's corn harvest this year. And it is inefficient: one biofuel tank of gas represents enough corn to feed a person for an entire year.
We need to stop the ridiculous biofuel subsidies in the US.
Sorry, /rant off
According to some, biofuels cause more pollution.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/08/science/earth/08wbiofuels.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/08/science/earth/08wbiofuels.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
CWJones411
IRR
But oil isn't found everywhere. Hence OPEC. You can grow corn or whatever almost anywhere. We can import food from another country without the danger of them restricting supply or raising costs at the level that is possible with oil.
This is just not economically the case. Oil isn't nearly 100$ a barrel because it has some "inherent" value. It's that expensive because everyone wants it and there is only so much of it. If food becomes as more highly demanded (population growth) or its supply decreases (or in real terms even stays the same) its price will go up and you will see productive structures like OPEC for wheat and corn. Count on it.
Further proof that every educated human being should take an economics class. No personal offense meant CW...
True, however more efficient means of power generation can be used. Gas turbine power plants (hell gas turbine SOFC combination plants even) are considerably more efficient than a standard automotive engine. Use turbines for large scale power production and send that to battery powered vehicles. Now this doesn't take into account line losses, conversion efficiencies, etc. but it's a start. That, or make turbine electric-vehicles. You get the efficiency of a gas turbine, and the driveability of an electric vehicle (with the price of a jet, unfortunately). Back to the aviation side of things, battery powered aircraft wouldn't work simply due to weight. Batteries are very heavy and we don't have the technology to shrink them down.