Judge Orders Release of PIR's

[Flash]

I saw this in the business section of the newspaper and was disappointed with the judge and his reasoning, saying that his ruling will not have an effect on reporting. I have to agree with the airlines and ALPA, it will have a 'chilling effect'. Just wondering what the resident airline pilots thought of this?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/15/AR2008021503192_pf.html

 

[HooverPilot]

There goes another effective safety program...

 

[Lawman]

"Please, tell us everything. We're all on the same side here. This will in no way come back to haunt you."

 

[phrogdriver]

This will be horrible, along the lines of mishap board info getting forwarded to the JAG.

However, the judge may not have had a choice. I imagine the FAA instituted this program in-house under its own regulatory authority, with no specific statute from Congress protecting the information gathered. The plantiffs probably had a fair legal argument to have the information disclosed. Unfortunately, this is one of the after effects, and I'm sure Congress will never ante up the sack to protect said info. Imagine the headlines,"Congress passes law to shield incompetent airline crews from civil liability."

 

[plc67]

I'm sure they'll wind up with access to their training records also.

 

[mb1k]

"Oh ..hey thanks for than AnyMouse you submitted there Bob. What? Yeah sorry about that bleeding from me poking you in the eye with it."

 

[Huggy Bear]

This will be horrible, along the lines of mishap board info getting forwarded to the JAG.

However, the judge may not have had a choice. I imagine the FAA instituted this program in-house under its own regulatory authority, with no specific statute from Congress protecting the information gathered. The plantiffs probably had a fair legal argument to have the information disclosed. Unfortunately, this is one of the after effects, and I'm sure Congress will never ante up the sack to protect said info. Imagine the headlines,"Congress passes law to shield incompetent airline crews from civil liability."

Good point. They are too shortsighted to see that this program will drastically improve safety in the long run, even if it may cause some families heartburn in the short term.

 

[A4sForever]

In many jurisdictions overseas, you are ALREADY considered liable and a potential criminal when you crash & burn (and survive) .... the cops are amongst the first to arrive at the crash scene.

I can see a general trend here; what with too many lawyers and too many people trying to run our lives ... ???

 

[Lawman]

In many jurisdictions overseas, you are ALREADY considered liable and a potential criminal when you crash & burn (and survive) .... the cops are amongst the first to arrive at the crash scene.

I can see a general trend here; what with too many lawyers and too many people trying to run our lives ... ???

Sknyliv airshow disaster

"On June 24, 2005, a military court sentenced Toponar and co-pilot Yuriy Yegorov to fourteen and eight years in prison, respectively. The court found the two pilots and three other military officials guilty of failing to follow orders, negligence and violating flight rules. Two of the three officials were sentenced to up to six years in prison, and the last official received up to four years. In addition, Toponar was ordered to pay 7.2 million hryvnia ($1.42 million; €1.18 million) in compensation to the families, and Yegorov another 2.5 million hryvnia."

Now granted it could be argued that these guys were in fact "Flathatting" and did through their actions put the crowd at unneccesary risk and result in the deadliest crash in Air Show history. But still, damn.

 

[FLYTPAY]

In many jurisdictions overseas, you are ALREADY considered liable and a potential criminal when you crash & burn (and survive) .... the cops are amongst the first to arrive at the crash scene.

http://www.cnn.com/US/9806/16/marine.cablecar/
The Prowler crew was close to being arrested by the Italians(one of the crew is the source of this), it is a different world overseas.

 

[A4sForever]

..... it is a different world overseas.

And let me re-emphasize --- overseas you are guilty until proven innocent in most cases. Completely ass backwards.

Whether you hire a cab or whether you fly da' plane ... and are doin' EXACTLY what you are suppose to be doin' ... you are "responsible and liable" for any associated problems.

God Bless America. For now .... :icon_wink

 

[Flash]

Sknyliv airshow disasterNow granted it could be argued that these guys were in fact "Flathatting" and did through their actions put the crowd at unneccesary risk and result in the deadliest crash in Air Show history. But still, damn.

What those guys did was entirely different from most airline crashes.

http://www.cnn.com/US/9806/16/marine.cablecar/
The Prowler crew was close to being arrested by the Italians(one of the crew is the source of this), it is a different world overseas.

One of the crew was an instructor at VT-86 when I went through and he briefed the squadron on the whole experience at a squadron only safety standdown. If I remember correctly, they were held by the Italians for a few hours before they were handed back over to the Marines. He was pretty explicit that the Marine COC cut them loose without any help from the beginning to the end, he was understandably a bit bitter with the Marines about the whole experience.

He also said that it was the only accident he ever heard of that did not have a safety investigation. From what I remember, he said that the Safety Center sent someone to Italy and soon after he arrived he had a meeting with a Marine MGEN that told him that he was to turn over all of the results of the investigation to him, for possible use in the JAG and Italian police investigations. The Safety guys refused and eventually left without investigating because the Center did not want to compromise the sanctity of of a safety investigation. HeyJoe might be able to shed more light on that, but he was pretty clear about it.

On a side note, he was one of the best instructors I ever had in my time in flight school.

 

[Lawman]

What those guys did was entirely different from most airline crashes.

Oh Im just saying that while there is a fine line between negligence and stupidity the end results may be and often are the same.

 

[FLYTPAY]

One of the crew was an instructor at VT-86 when I went through and he briefed the squadron on the whole experience at a squadron only safety standdown. If I remember correctly, they were held by the Italians for a few hours before they were handed back over to the Marines. He was pretty explicit that the Marine COC cut them loose without any help from the beginning to the end, he was understandably a bit bitter with the Marines about the whole experience.

He also said that it was the only accident he ever heard of that did not have a safety investigation. From what I remember, he said that the Safety Center sent someone to Italy and soon after he arrived he had a meeting with a Marine MGEN that told him that he was to turn over all of the results of the investigation to him, for possible use in the JAG and Italian police investigations. The Safety guys refused and eventually left without investigating because the Center did not want to compromise the sanctity of of a safety investigation. HeyJoe might be able to shed more light on that, but he was pretty clear about it.

On a side note, he was one of the best instructors I ever had in my time in flight school.

I was referring to that specific AOM.

 

[Flash]

I was referring to that specific AOM.

One of the best safety stand-arounds I have ever been too, a lot of lessons he learned the hard way that were very good to know.