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SPLIT: So, what's up with IFS?

tlevine

New Member
I apologize in advance for the verboseness of this post.

If you are interested in getting your PPL (Private Pilot’s License), I think you can get it at the end of primary. Besides, I do not think getting a PPL automatically bypasses you through IFS anymore. Some of my classmates and then some people I met at A-pool who had PPLs were still required to complete IFS. No biggie, you will just get done quicker and besides you already understand the concepts they are trying to teach you. Wind pushes you, turn the yoke left, the plane goes left. Simple things like that. Perhaps the most invaluable training you receive in IFS is radio work. Students are often apprehensive about radio calls. This will get you over that fear. Pretty soon you realize that the voice on the other end is in fact another human being. On the ground getting ready for a solo, I called up Eglin Clearance and to my amazement, the guy they had on the radio was a student as well. "Eglin clearance, Miracle Strip 5-0 delta on the ground at Destin, departing Runway 32, request VFR clearance to the east training area." To which I heard "Miracle strip 5-0 delta, uhhhhh....uhhhhh *mike Clicks* uhhhh miracle strip 5-0 delta departure approved?" The instructor at clearance took over then.

IFS is being taken more seriously now (for use as a further weeding-out tool) and the Navy, although they swear up and down they are not doing this, is looking for a certain drop-out rate and they have revoked flight school contracts on the grounds that the flight schools are not failing enough people. Realize that by being selected into flight school, you are already a cut above. Most people are pretty smart, and fairly confident in their known abilities. My suggestion is you just go through IFS and hopefully you will get a good instructor which most of them are. Almost everyone passes IFS. People who don’t usually pass should not even be allowed near plane let alone any type of complicated machinery.

As far as college majors go, I went to the Merchant Marine Academy and majored in Ship Operations and Technology. It was basically a major in navigation (terrestrial, celestial, and radio) with a minor in engineering. If you had a major that catered to API textbooks, that probably would be as close as you can get. Realize the course is designed to take anyone and I mean anyone and teach them the basics of flight. I would not stress over the major gearing you for API, but rather one that will get you TO API. It does no good to choose a major you cannot do well in and then get passed over because your grades in college are not high enough. That may be why you hear such things as “Poly-Sci to fly” since these majors are traditionally easier on the GPAs. Just read the books, memorize bold print, participate in study groups, and you should be fine as long as you invest the time and energy. I think most of the winged aviators in here would conquer with that.
 

HH-60H

Manager
pilot
Contributor
verboseness
This word is verbose in and of itself.
If you are interested in getting your PPL (Private Pilot’s License), I think you can get it at the end of primary.
I am not quite sure what you mean by this. If you are implying that you can get your PPL with your flight experience (hours) and training received in Primary, that is incorrect. If you mean you can go out on your own, spend your own money, and get your PPL, that is correct, but you don't need to wait for the end of Primary to do so. I am not sure I would recommend it though.

IFS is being taken more seriously now (for use as a further weeding-out tool) and the Navy, although they swear up and down they are not doing this, is looking for a certain drop-out rate and they have revoked flight school contracts on the grounds that the flight schools are not failing enough people.

How on earth could you possibly know this?

I think most of the winged aviators in here would conquer with that.

No, I would not conquer with that.

Your post seems based on a lot of supposition and rumor. You might need to check your facts again.
 

tlevine

New Member
I state this because the IFS flight school I had gone to told me they had their contract revoked for one year before for the reason I stated. I would not have stated it otherwise. I have consistently heard the IPs there state their frustration with IFS because they have made those demands on them. As far as PPL after primary, I thought you could get it, but I am mistaken. Sorry for that misrepresentation.
 

HH-60H

Manager
pilot
Contributor
I state this because the IFS flight school I had gone to told me they had their contract revoked for one year before for the reason I stated. I would not have stated it otherwise. I have consistently heard the IPs there state their frustration with IFS because they have made those demands on them. As far as PPL after primary, I thought you could get it, but I may be mistaken.

Hmmm, it's possible or it could just be a flight school with other problems. I am working on my CFI at a place that is an IFS school and I haven't heard anything similar.

As far as the PPL, the only military equivalency process comes when you get your wings. It is covered under FAR 61.73. If you don't get your wings, none of your flight time counts, except for IFS. I guess some of your flight time MIGHT count if your instructors were CFI's, which I don't think most are.
 

tlevine

New Member
HH-60, I can give you the name of the flight school in PM if you want since I think the forum mods try to protect names if you would like to look into it. When they gave us our IFS brief they assured us it was not being used that way, that it was merely to let those who find flying is not for them DOR before reaching primary. What the flight school told me contradicts what IFS is saying. Either way, like I said before, you really have to be bad at flying or not want to be there to fail IFS so I think for the majority of people, they will not have to worry about it. The fact that you are training to be a CFI for one of those Part 141 schools and have not heard about this is encouraging since I believe that civilian flight schools should not have the ability to de-rail someone’s Navy career path.
 

SDNalgene

Blind. Continue...
pilot
civilian flight schools should not have the ability to de-rail someone’s Navy career path.

Given that I almost attrited out of IFS because it took me a few extra flight hours in the pattern to get over a fear of the earth, I would agree with you on that. Apparently flaring does not equal ballooning and those spring steel landing gear on Cessnas only cushion so much.... However, it's kinda hard to nail the point home because no one who attrites in IFS goes on so you just have to assume they would have sucked at primary. I don't know if other's have had similar experiences, but I barely squeaked by IFS, and not for lack of effort mind you, and went on to do much better in primary. Perhaps the Navy got exactly what they wanted out of IFS because it scared me straight and I studied like crazy. Who knows? The whole IFS thing is a decision for many paygrades above us, but hell, that never stopped idle speculation.

By the way, great signature.
 

ChunksJR

Retired.
pilot
Contributor
However, it's kinda hard to nail the point home because no one who attrites in IFS goes on so you just have to assume they would have sucked at primary.

I didn't have IFS, but this is exactly why the Navy adopted it. That and the Air Force has been doing it forever to their benefit.

Simple fiscal reasoning and $$/student. Why get a student in the air with a turboprop who 1) cannot adapt to flying a 160-hp piston engine or 2) doesn't enjoy it anyway and will DOR once in the program.
 

Lanisem

wnna jam.
Why get a student in the air with a turboprop who 1) cannot adapt to flying a 160-hp piston engine or 2) doesn't enjoy it anyway and will DOR once in the program.

This is somewhat along the lines of what I was thinking, how having any previous hours in a plane would at least affirm (for the person, and for the sake of the Navy) that the individual is surely willing to fly, versus some wannabe that just saw Top Gun and got excited..

What I'm wondering is.. Do most of you guys consider IFS a burden, as in something to get over with? Or is it something to enjoy.. There's no question that it is beneficial..
 

tlevine

New Member
Do most of you guys consider IFS a burden, as in something to get over with? Or is it something to enjoy.. There's no question that it is beneficial..

I enjoy IFS. Anything that gets me in the air I enjoy and I think there is no greater joy than flying. For people that have yet to be in a small plane, it is a confidence builder. For those who pass, it shows you can pilot a plane by yourself. However, if the Navy is using it as a screening tool in which they are telling flight schools a certain number should fail, I do not agree with. The first thing to remember is that these are civilian flight schools which are designed to take any bumpkin off the street and teach to fly. The IPs I talked with (mind you this is just the flight school I went too) stated that they would work with students by putting extra time in if need be, off the books, if the student is having trouble. The Navy, according to them, does not want them to do this, but instead screen them and judge their natural flying ability. For some people flying comes naturally, others it is an acquired skill. Being a natural does not automatically relegate the others who take more time as inferior aviators. Flying is different and sometimes the brain has to be manually re-wired to grasp the concepts. The IPs at my school also shared my opinion that as civilians, they feel they have no right to ruin someone's military career.

So far, however, people that I know have failed IFS or have had trouble have it mostly with the written exams. The FAA which you need a 70% in the real world and 80% for the Navy gets most of these people. If you fail any test in IFS, you must go before a board in which they belittle you and tell you are not worthy of the program blah blah blah. If it is your first failure, their bark is worse than their bite. Just don't fail anymore tests. If you have no previous knowledge of the FARs or airspace, or any General Aviation (GA) knowledge, the ground school will cram that into your brain. Read ahead since the course is condensed into a much shorter time frame than it was designed. Most things you learn in IFS such as airspace, navigation, and FARs will carry over into API so pay attention. Some instructors (CFIs) are prior military pilots and can really groom you for what lies ahead. IFS is a good warm-up for API and primary I believe. It gets you into the proper mode of studying and kicks you in the butt if you thought you could get away with something or did not put the required amount of effort. Best to err in IFS and realize it than to do it in API or primary where you might not be able to recover.
 

jamnww

Hangar Four
pilot
IFS is a good warm-up for API and primary I believe. It gets you into the proper mode of studying and kicks you in the butt if you thought you could get away with something or did not put the required amount of effort.

Thats awesome that it was that helpful, mine was a joke, kinda like taking a 6 week vacation where you get to fly. Case in point, our ground school started week 3 of flying.
 

HackerF15E

Retired Strike Pig Driver
None
The IPs I talked with (mind you this is just the flight school I went too) stated that they would work with students by putting extra time in if need be, off the books, if the student is having trouble. The Navy, according to them, does not want them to do this, but instead screen them and judge their natural flying ability.


The big question is...would the Navy IPs in Primary be inclined to do the same thing? Would they give you extra sorties or time "off the books" to help you pass at Whiting?

Part of the benefit of IFS is to see if a student will adapt to the military way of flying. Being able to grasp a concept in a proscribed number of flights in the syllabus is a big part of that.
 

tlevine

New Member
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The big question is...would the Navy IPs in Primary be inclined to do the same thing? Would they give you extra sorties or time "off the books" to help you pass at Whiting?

Part of the benefit of IFS is to see if a student will adapt to the military way of flying. Being able to grasp a concept in a proscribed number of flights in the syllabus is a big part of that.

I see your point, but I would have to disagree. IFS is Introductory Flight Screening, emphasizing Introductory. Just as high school is different from college, so is primary from IFS. If high schoolers were treated like college students, especially the 9th graders, I have a feeling that there would be less people attending colleges let alone sticking through high school. Keep in mind that some people have never been in a small airplane prior to coming in here. Most of the fundamentals transfer over, it’s the details that start to pile up I believe in primary. If people require a few extra flights in IFS to help them, then why not? Someone before in the thread mentioned they had barely squeaked by in IFS and now they are doing better in primary. Is it fair to say that someone who doesn't grasp it quickly in the beginning is doomed to be a failure in Navy flight? I would not like to think so and I would think we would be potentially losing some great aviators by doing so.

Also keep in mind that these are civilian IPs (CFIs). Some of them are prior military, some are not. Their job is to teach people how to fly (at least with people not in IFS), not so much as to screen them and evaluate their potential. I would also like to add that I think you are thinking of the extra flights going to people who just cannot grasp anything and need the entire syllabus again until they finally squeak by. Most of the time, the IPs told me this is not the case. It is finer things, like people having trouble lining up on centerline, stalls, or the flare. A short hop to recognize repeated errors and tips to correct them are usually what these "extra sorties" end up being. So if you can make someone that much better with a little extra time in the beginning, why not?
 

HH-60H

Manager
pilot
Contributor
Wow....

I see your point, but I would have to disagree. IFS is Introductory Flight Screening, emphasizing Introductory.
Nope.... emphasizing screening

If people require a few extra flights in IFS to help them, then why not?
Because it costs money. The Navy has a maximum $ it wants to spend per student (on average). So, when they crunched the numbers they decided the max number of flights to allow one person.

Also keep in mind that these are civilian IPs (CFIs). Some of them are prior military, some are not. Their job is to teach people how to fly (at least with people not in IFS), not so much as to screen them and evaluate their potential.
Wrong again.... CFI's are constantly evaluating students. Evaluating how they learn, why they are making particular errors, etc. They also evaluate potential. For people who are unable to "get" flying in the "normal" amounts of time honest CFI's have "the talk", so the students aren't wasting their money for an endorsement that may never come.

You have made a couple comparisons between IFS and Primary. Your profile says you haven't started it yet, have you?
 
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