'New' IFS

[Gatordev]

sounds like a dual XC to me. You still pay for the instructor and you may or may not be able to log it as PIC time. Yeah, that's quite gay.

I agree it's gay, but it's actually quite common in the training command. It's called a shotgun solo. In fact, there are a few Corpus guys who are guaranteed shotgun solos right now....here at Whiting.

 

[tiger84]

Yes, we are required to do a solo cross country, wheels back on the deck by 25 total hours. I'm right in the middle of IFS right now in Pensacola (14.6 total time, 1.0 solo). I did my first solo in the pattern at 11 hours total time. We're also in Charlie airspace (at least the guys at Pensacola Regional) but it's not really a big deal timewise and seems to be helpful in terms of learning comms.

In general IFS is a blast and a great learning tool. The school I'm at does a good job getting people prepared, although I have heard of people at some of the other schools having a bit more trouble with it. Maybe the Air Force guys just needed a kick in the ass and a friendly reminder that the yoke is not a chew toy.

They are actually "required" to go on this cross country? What does the Navy consider to be a cross country? 50 NM? I took about 4 Air Force nav guys through IFS. Basically, the syllabus called for an "area solo" at the end, which only one did and he had about 40 hours previous.

The guys starting from scratch? There was no way that I would let them take the plane out by themselves let alone on a cross country. The no time previous guys soloed with the three takeoffs and landings at about 20-21 hours. Requiring a solo cross country at 23.5 hours may be a little ambitious.

One mitigating factor to take into account was the airport that we were training from. We were based out of KSAT, so we were dealing with Class Charlie and had to fly about 15 minutes before we could start doing anything other than climbing and straight and level. Then 15 minutes back. Plus all the time it took them to get off the ground because only one of them would memorize the frequencies and actually practiced the phraseology other than in the airplane. I don't know if we ever made it off the ground in less than 10 minutes.

 

[usmarinemike]

I agree it's gay, but it's actually quite common in the training command. It's called a shotgun solo. In fact, there are a few Corpus guys who are guaranteed shotgun solos right now....here at Whiting.

If I'm getting paid to have an IP with me in a turbine powered T-whatever and it's common SOP, then so be it. If I'm training out in civvie world in a C-172 and this happens, then I'm suspecting the CFI just wants to make a few bucks. If it's a method not addressed in the FARs, then the method doesn't exist.

 

[Gatordev]

If I'm getting paid to have an IP with me in a turbine powered T-whatever and it's common SOP, then so be it. If I'm training out in civvie world in a C-172 and this happens, then I'm suspecting the CFI just wants to make a few bucks. If it's a method not addressed in the FARs, then the method doesn't exist.

But the difference is you're not paying for the time in a C-172 and that time IS actually in a training command. Yes, IFS falls under Part 141 (or whatever it is), school, but it's actually a CNATRA syllabus.

Now in the real world, I'm totally with you, but since they're trying to get everyone through in a cookie-cutter curriculum and a maximum time, not everyone will make it in the "recommended" time, so it's understandable to shotgun guys. From what I heard, a while back they were doing this because a) some studs screwed up some airplanes on their CCXs and b) the training to get them there wasn't exactly optimum.

 

[xmid]

So what are the requirements to skip the "new IFS"? Do you need a solo xc? 25 hours? or both? I was under the impression before that you just needed to have solo'ed period, although that may be wrong. Anyone know the answer?

 

[usmarinemike]

But the difference is you're not paying for the time in a C-172 and that time IS actually in a training command. Yes, IFS falls under Part 141 (or whatever it is), school, but it's actually a CNATRA syllabus.

Now in the real world, I'm totally with you, but since they're trying to get everyone through in a cookie-cutter curriculum and a maximum time, not everyone will make it in the "recommended" time, so it's understandable to shotgun guys. From what I heard, a while back they were doing this because a) some studs screwed up some airplanes on their CCXs and b) the training to get them there wasn't exactly optimum.

Im with you. I suppose it is understandable in IFS. Gotta wonder about both the aptitude of the stud and the effectiveness of the CFI after 25 hours though.

 

[tiger84]

With my limited experience thus far I think it's perfectly feasible and safe to have the majority of us fly the solo XCs. They're pretty serious about the pre-solo stage checks and they won't send people up who are unsafe or otherwise unprepared. I myself felt perfectly comfortable soloing with a fairly low number of hours and I'm sure I'll feel comfortable doing the solo XC at about 20-21 hours. Some people obviously take longer, but flying every day to every other day seems to help a lot with both confidence and competence.

Im with you. I suppose it is understandable in IFS. Gotta wonder about both the aptitude of the stud and the effectiveness of the CFI after 25 hours though.

 

[White_Male]

Holy crap. Are you serious? When I soloed, I had a little over 8 hours, and that was out of Orlando Exec. I think I would have kicked my instructor in the balls if he made me wait till I had 20 hours.

Come on, are saying there is NOTHING you can do in that 15 minutes on the way to the practice area?

edit: I'll have to look in my logbook to see when I did my first solo xc

I am serious. There was not a whole lot that they could do at 8 hours. Typically, I tried to get them to do their cruise checklist done on that 15 minute flight and talk to approach and departure. That was usually enough for them to handle.

It may be that I am an over-cautious instructor. But, I doubt it. I should have done some things differently just like with every other student I have. However, compared with the other students I have they were below the average. Plus, they didn't really seem to have any motivation. IFS seemed to be somewhat of a joke. At least until they were staring 20 hours in the face and weren't soloed yet.

I personally think it was a combination of lack of aptitude, and lack of motivation.

There are more going through the course right now, and from what their instructor's have told me, they are experiencing similar problems. I will check and see if they are still having them.

 

[usmarinemike]

I personally think it was a combination of lack of aptitude, and lack of motivation.

Kinda what I was getting at back in the beginning. I don't care if it is a Katana or Skyhawk...they should have been stoked to even be there. They have a place at the table. They're like the Physics lab students that I teach. They were A students in their public high schools so they think there isn't anything to learn and then come crying to me in December or May when they're about to fail their friggin 1100 level lab...unsat.

 

[eddie]

Does the PPL exemption from IFS counts if it is a glider PPL???

 

[DocT]

Annapolis IFS is Academy only. If you're a Marine, you'll probably do it at Quantico but I'm not entirely sure. All ROTC and OCS guys do IFS down in Pensacola during A-pool.

Bad gouge. There are so many Marines in Pensacola who are IFS incomplete we are sending Marines back to TBS for IFS. Any Marine can go to Annapolis as long as he has his own place to stay.

 

[White_Male]

I forgot about this last night. My chief FI, who has seen a lot more Air Force IFS guys go through the program than I have, told me that very few of them ever actually make it to the area solo (last flight in the syllabus) at 25 hours.

Left Eye Lewie: could you post or pm me a breakdown of what you did in those 8 hours. Something must have been done right.

 

[Morgan81]

Holy crap. Are you serious? When I soloed, I had a little over 8 hours, and that was out of Orlando Exec. I think I would have kicked my instructor in the balls if he made me wait till I had 20 hours.

I was over 20 hours at the time of my solo as well. 24 I think. It was a part 61 school so I was scheduling a flight once a week and wx canned about 2 a month. Take me back two years and let me go up everyday, and I'd like to think I would solo much sooner.

 

[insanebikerboy]

Left Eye Lewie: could you post or pm me a breakdown of what you did in those 8 hours. Something must have been done right.

I'm with LEL, I soloed at about 9 hours, went on my solo cross country at 21 hours. Basically all I did up to those nine hours was lots of power on/off stall recovery, pattern work, and simulated engine failures. Throw in some steep turns and visual navigation, and that's really about it.

I'm not up on how IFS is being run these days but I had my first solo in the pattern at my field, had my second solo at about 16 hours out to our working area, and then my final cross country solo.

 

[Piperdriver]

What is different with the new IFS and the old? Seems the same to me, back when I went through all SNAs had to solo x-country within 25 hrs, I don't know anyone who finished IFS without the solo.