Reference and LOR questions.

[new_recruit]

I'm getting my application together and had a few questions. Can my references be the same people who give me my Letters of recomendation or do they have to be different people? Also, what format do they look for in the letter? Another one; how well would I have to know someone? One guy I know thinkis he may be able to get his son, a captain in the Army to make one for me. Would that be ok even though I have never met his son? Thanks.

 

[Steve Wilkins]

Would that be ok even though I have never met his son?

No, it wouldn't be ok

 

[Tom]

I'm getting my application together and had a few questions. Can my references be the same people who give me my Letters of recomendation or do they have to be different people? Also, what format do they look for in the letter? Another one; how well would I have to know someone? One guy I know thinkis he may be able to get his son, a captain in the Army to make one for me. Would that be ok even though I have never met his son? Thanks.

1. Ask your recruiter first. If they say ok make sure the person could right you a good letter.

2. All my letters looked professional. Those writing the letter should be able to figure it out.

3. There is not a requirement per se about how well you know the person. If you did not know them very well, or at all, then the letter would be a bland piece of shit. This would be obvious to the board.

LOR's do not just check the box. They play a minor role in the application, but do not screw them up. A good group of LOR's would show a strong work ethic, dependability, moral character, leadership, etc. Ask people who you can think will be able to portray why you deserve to be accepted. This runs along the lines of employers, professors/teachers (college would be best), leaders of groups (Boy/Girl Scouts, CAP, etc.) and priests/ministers/pastors/rabbis/clerics/cult leaders/mail man.

 

[BACONATOR]

Bottom line: the better you know the person, the better the letter will look. I went to a handful of ex-Navy/MC professors, spoke with them about their careers and asked them pertinent questions, and then tactfully asked if they would be willing to write a letter for me to help my application. They were all happy to oblige. I highly recommend this. Before asking someone for a letter, ask about his/her career. This will open them up and see that you really care and are really researching your future life. They will most likely be more than willing to help you. Don't get a letter from someone just because they have a rank behind their name. This doesn't look good for you or them. You can get a letter from an ex-employer (my guess as to what you meant by reference) no problem. I did this myself.

Best of luck,

Bogey

 

[Steve Wilkins]

1. Ask your recruiter first. It they say ok make sure the person could right you a good letter.

2. All my letters looked professional. Those writing the letter should be able to figure it out.

3. There is not a requirement per se about how well you know the person. If you did not know them very well, or at all, then the letter would be a bland piece of shit. This would be obvious to the board.

He can ask his recruiter every day of the week and twice on Sunday for all I care. That doesn't mean that it's ok to have someone who doesn't know the individual to write the letter. I personally think it demonstrates a lack of integrity. You're essentially having someone vouch for you. And if the person does not know you well enough to write the letter without having a third-party-go-between, then they don't know you well enough to write the letter and shouldn't write the letter.

Do not ever assume that someone should be able to figure it out. It may seem reasonable to you, the applicant, how a recommendation letter should be written and in what format. But left without clear instruction or direction, and you may be submitting something that won't reflect well on you.

 

[Tom]

He can ask his recruiter every day of the week and twice on Sunday for all I care. That doesn't mean that it's ok to have someone who doesn't know the individual to write the letter. I personally think it demonstrates a lack of integrity. You're essentially having someone vouch for you. And if the person does not know you well enough to write the letter without having a third-party-go-between, then they don't know you well enough to write the letter and shouldn't write the letter.

Do not ever assume that someone should be able to figure it out. It may seem reasonable to you, the applicant, how a recommendation letter should be written and in what format. But left without clear instruction or direction, and you may be submitting something that won't reflect well on you.

In my first point I was referencing his question regarding letters of reference and recommendation. For my application you had to have a letter of reference from a past employer AND then at least three letters of recommendation. The letters of reference were primarily what former employers are limited in telling prospective employers (was this person employed there, confirming dates, is this person eligible for rehire, etc.). Letters of recommendation are what you are describing.

I would bet money that an employer would not write a letter of recommendation unless they are really close to you. Former employers writing letters of recommendation can lay an amount of liability upon themselves. As with almost every application question always talk to your recruiter first.

Who would have thought that having a business class required for an aviation major would help?

 

[Steve Wilkins]

I would bet money that an employer would not write a letter of recommendation unless they are really close to you. Former employers writing letters of recommendation can lay an amount of liability upon themselves.

I'll take that bet, cause you're wrong. There is absolutely nothing wrong with former employers writing a letter of recommendation, especially if they can attest to your work ethic, leadership ability, character, desire and commitment to serve, etc. An employer need not know you on a personal level to be able to do this.

 

[CaptainRon]

cult leaders/mail man.

Haha.

 

[Tom]

I'll take that bet, cause you're wrong. There is absolutely nothing wrong with former employers writing a letter of recommendation, especially if they can attest to your work ethic, leadership ability, character, desire and commitment to serve, etc. An employer need not know you on a personal level to be able to do this.

I had two former employers refuse to write a full blown letter of recommendation. They would only answer the very specific facts, such as confirming that I worked there, when I worked there and that I left on good terms. Both said they were not allowed by company policy due to liability concerns. I also had a business professor say the same thing about letters. I also understand this is merely three people, but go with this on me.

In http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=000&invol=95-1376 ROBINSON v. SHELL OIL CO. a judgment applies liability and negligence relating to former employers' recommendations of employees. This is long, but give it a skim http://www.wadleighlaw.com/Articles/School/lets_get_personnel.htm.

This case and other cases to follow on the state level do not create an absolute. Give google a search and you will find more cases of lawsuits. Could an employer write a lengthy letter of recommendation for someone? Yes. Is it a liability? Yes. Is the liability worth it? If you are a good person, had a great experience working and left on great conditions I can imagine low risk.

So to argue my point, yes there is something wrong with former employers writing a letter of recommendation.

 

[Steve Wilkins]

So to argue my point, yes there is something wrong with former employers writing a letter of recommendation.

You base this on your former employers and some case law. I understand your position and why you see it that way, but there's still nothing wrong with employers writing letters of rec. Using your logic, it would inappropriate to assume that McDonalds should serve hot coffee. The bottom line is that the American legal tort system is flawed and way beyond the scope of this discussion. We can sue just about anyone for just about any reason.

So, I stand by what I said. There's nothing wrong with an employer writing a recommendation letter.

 

[Sly1978]

This same topic has been gone over again and again here. It always comes down to the same thing: The reason the Navy asks for LORs is not to find out how well connected you are (by the way, an army O-3 is not going to cause anyone on the Navy selection board to wet themselves). The point to the LORs is to get an idea of what kind of person you are. Mine were from one of my old high school teachers, a Motorola engineer (who was actually unemployed at the time he wrote my LOR), and the GM at the restaurant I worked at. No one who's name you would drop at a cocktail party. Obviously it worked out OK for me.

Just get letters from people you know who can actually attest to your character. Work on the quality of the letter, not the status of the writer. Also, I agree with Steve. Don't assume that they are going to do it well. I had all my references show me a copy beforehand so that we could be sure it was what I needed. Not a bad idea, but try not to write (that's "right" to you, Tom) the letter yourself and have the person sign it. They'll see through that. Good luck.