Yeah...so about these P-3 things...

[eddie]

^^ where?

 

[Flash]

Well guys...got some...ahem....interesting news today. Selected. Sheet was Jets, E2/C2, and rotary. I got P-3's.

Since this was something I hadn't ever really thought about, I have some questions. I am interested in getting as much flight time...D yeah...i know) as possible, and I have heard that EP-3's are a good way to go in this regard. Additionally I have always wanted to end up in the Pac. NW...so this seems like a good fit. Primarily what type of flying are these guys doing? Det locations? Missions?

I have posted this description of EP-3 life before, it is the best summary that I could come up with about what life is like in VQ(P), funny how things happen over and over again (the part about heeding Zab's advice). The EP-3community is looking at the P-8 as well, though it will probably be at the tail end of the P-8 production. So, there will probably be EP-3's flying after the last USN P-3's are put in the boneyard, and they have enough money and airframe life to fly them until 2017 (that is straight from the horse's mouth). Ironically, it was a VQ visit to Boeing that got them thinking about a MARPAT 737. I did cut out the NFO part just for you........

Just to add a little pilot bit, VQ flying is much different than VP flying. You are going to fly at about 240 to 270 flying figure 8's in the sky (always away from the target country.......)......and not much else, so it is definitely a littel more boring than VP. Though I think it is balanced out by going on the road as a crew, without the front office and DH's hanging over your shoulder. You rarely go down low, altitude is the mission in the EP-3. You do get to be part of the big picture and I always missed that in Prowlers, but I am not sure if that is important to you. One other thing of note, including getting more flight time every single pilot who asked for flying orders when I was in the squadron got some for thier follow on tour. Not always their first choice, but they got to fly......including the idiots...... But enough pilot talk, here is the summary of VQ life:

For what it is worth I loved the community but take Zab's advice and talk to as many people from the different communitites as possible. There are some in TRACOM from both of my communities that I would have second thoughts about them passing on good gouge, but there are plenty of good guys to balance them out. Here is the thread http://www.airwarriors.com/forum/sho...896#post192896 and here is the description I gave about the EP-3 life:

Several years ago, before I saw the light and switched to Prowlers, I was an EP-3 NFO. I can tell you that I did not change because I hated flying the [well-hung] Sky Pig, I loved the community. I just wanted something a little faster and cooler.....then I woke up and flew Prowlers

First off, as others have pointed out, there are only two squadrons that fly the EP-3, VQ-1 and VQ-2. VQ-2 just moved from Rota to Whidbey last year so you only have one place to go to fly EP-3's.

I make fun of it a little but I really enjoyed the mission, when it was interesting. You had a big picture view of what was going on around you, a lot like the E-2 but as a mostly passive player. And you were one of the few guys in town who could provide an invaluable service. For guys going to Iraq, the EP-3 and the Air Force equivalent were go/no-go birds that were requred for guys to be in the box. It is also a very intelligence oriented mission, so you got to get in the know about a lot of that stuff while still being an 'operational' type.

There were a couple of other key differences other than the mission between P-3's and EP-3's.

-Deployment schedule- You went on the road for 2 months at a time, and generally stayed home for 3 or 4 months before going out again. You went on the road as an individual crew, not with the squadron. About half the squadron was away from home at any given time so the squadron was never together in one place, which sucked a little bit. I did not even meet my mentor in the squadron until I had been in for 8 months, we were on opposite det cycles for a while. Expect to deploy 6 to 8 times (12-18 motnhs out of your tour, add 2-4 months for misc. TAD's and training). I deployed only 6 times because I left early due to my transition. You will deploy to the bigger det sites where P-3's go (Japan and the Middle East) though usually not the more exotic ones (India, Hong Kong etc.) because of the nature of our mission. There are a few times guys get to go to somewhere exotic, though that is relatively rare. There is a certain Carribean island that P-3's are not at but there is a usually an EP-3 there though.......

-Crew composition- The crew is twice as large as a P-3 crew, 24 guys, and is made up of several different specialties. There are 7 officers on board; 3 pilots, 3 NFO's and 1 other and there are a myriad of enlisted types. It was a challenge and a reward to lead the crew and get the job done. There were some....ummmmm....interesting personalities that you had to deal with for one of the mission areas (Zab should know who I am talking about ) and you had to learn to deal with them to accomplish your mission. That being said, some of them were scary smart. I learned more about a certain country's air force from an E-5 than I did reading all my study material.

Oh, yeah, the VP types might hate this but almost every deployed crew was all JO's. Out of my 6 crews I had only one that was had an O-4 and he was on a super JO tour and was not a DH. All of our DH's did half a det to get qualified and then did their DH time at home. It was heaven for a JO. I would say 90% of the MC's that took a crew on the road for a whole det were JO's, including me. It is quite the ego booster when you a 3-month LT who is the Mission Commander for the only EP-3 in theater, and you are covering combat missions. That is one of the things that makes Naval Aviation.

The flight hours are really good too. I walked out of the squadron with 1500 hours and that was considered pretty short for a JO NFO (I left 6 months early), most guys got around 2000. Pilots, generally got around 1600-2000 hours. And with the amount of flying they have done in OIF and OEF, those numbers have gone up a bit. A lot better than a VP-1 pilot in my office who walked out with 950, and he was a little high compared to his buddies.

A little note for the future. While the ACS (the replacment for the EP-3) has been cancelled, the Navy has taken some of the ACS money and ensuring the EP-3 fleet is viable until 2017. Believe me, I got this straight from the Program Office (random tasker from an RADM). So for those of you worried about community survival, VQ will be around for a bit.

I hope I have answered your questions, and then some . Bottom line, I don't think you can go wrong with EP-3's, especially if you are intereseted in intelligence at all. The community is small but pretty tight knit and a decent one to be in. The flying is a little boring, you burn whole in the sky at FL 250, but the mission can be really exciting in between all the boredom .

Please let me know if you have any more questions.

 

[Flash]

Has there ever been talk of merging the Navy & USAF in that mission area? I've worked with both, each with their pluses and minuses, but they seem to essentially provide the same products. Any UNCLASS experiences/opinions you'd care to relate - compare & contrast?

Brett

They are essentially the same missions, though they each have their pluses and minuses like you said. They did come very close to getting rid of one of the two platforms in the early 90's and did a big study on it, I got there right after the big scare to EP-3's was over. But they decided that since they needed the numbers, they were deployed to the max back then, they could not afford to retire either fleet. The cost to build up either fleet, read the RC-135 fleet, is way too prohibitive. The cost of a brand new Rivet Joint is in the hundreds of millions, and it would be several billion to bulk up the fleet by 10 or 12.

It really would not fly in today's enviroment, both fleets are tasked beyond their limits. The RC guys are hurting, though it is mainly USAF stupidity that is the cause for that. It is not helped by putting a one star Intel O in charge of the wing.......easily one of the most incompetent and unprofessional guys I ever had the displeasure to deal with.......

You want irony? How about a Navy aircraft fleet a third smaller and half the aircrew that delivers the same number of deployable planes as the USAF. More irony, the USAF in its infinite wisdom deploys their most overstreched aircrew position so much that they are gone sometimes two to three times as much as the regular guys, 240 to 300 days a year for 4-5 years, and then suffers even more when they have the worst retention rates in the wing. The issue has gotten so bad it was at OSD level a few months ago. Unfortuntely, at least for this issue, the Rumsfeld crew left and the USAF has not been told to unscrew itself yet........

The best solution, put Navy crews in the RC-135. The USAF Rivet Joint guys are not bad, especially when they have been flying the plane for 8 straight years, but they run the plane with three seperate crews. They don't even hav ea mission commander! The EP-8 will even things up a bit.......and yes, there are concrete proposals for the thing, I have even seen cool paintings doen by Beoing for it!

 

[Flash]

^^ where?

Usually right below these things.........

 

[Pugs]

Common Sensor (ACS) [/URL]was to replace their Guardrail and Navy EP-3 platfroms with an Embraer airframe until it was stillborn like so many other Army led programs.

The Embraer didn't have the space and power for the ACS as it turned out which led to the cancellation. My person working that program said they even looked at taking ES-3's out of mothballs but I don't know where it sits now.

 

[scoober78]

Guys...first...let me say that I appreciate the responses and good wishes that many of you posted/PM'd.

Them's the breaks.

Zab...please don't mistake my disappointment about not getting my choices for disappointment about VP/VQ community. I was expressing the first. Mighta posted too soon after the fact...in any case, I am on my way to getting pumped about my future in VP and/or VQ. There is alot of good that I have to look forward to...and I'm flying for a living. Period.

Now...time to figure out how to be as good as I can at this, and also, where and what I want to do.

Having talked to a couple VQ folks today, I am certainly interested in looking deeper into that option...(not just for Whidbey, Brett...although... ) How far into advanced do you begin that selection process? Is it similar to the primary selection as far as timing? I understand that its a much more limited mission (from the tactical flying point of view) but is that the only explanation for the difference in RAG lengths? (6 weeks vs. 6 months) Lastly, once VQ always VQ, or is there flexibility between tours?

 

[webmaster]

Once VQ, always VQ...

Congrats on selection P3s.

 

[HeyJoe]

The Embraer didn't have the space and power for the ACS as it turned out which led to the cancellation.

Therein lies the rub..no excuses! They spent millions (hundreds) to figure that out.....usually, it works out better is you pick your mission systems first and then design an aircraft or pick one that can handle the size, weight and power (SWAP) needed......is there a smilie that shakes its head? Army seems to have a track record in not being able to resolve size, weight and power considerations (XM2001 Crusader couldn't even be carried in a C-17 because it was so overweight)

 

[Southern Ag]

You will select VQ or VP after you finish with 31 or 35. Also, that rag is a little shorter.

 

[Steve Wilkins]

Well guys...got some...ahem....interesting news today. Selected. Sheet was Jets, E2/C2, and rotary. I got P-3's.

I guess it could be worse.

You could be going to this

or another one of these

I have to say though that you will be required to turn gay now. Thems the breaks, as Zab says.

 

[smittyrunr]

Congrats and Welcome to P-3s! Most of what's been said is good stuff, just wanted to add a couple things. One, VP is doing a lot more dets these days, in addition to deployments. We've had the busiest home cycle anyone can remember, the the opportunity to take your crew out as a JO alone and unafraid is there. Two, as a VP pilot, I see VQ flying a pretty boring- in fact one of their crews was above us one day (we were down low doing asw) and theyr emarked later how much fun it looked like we were having. We do have our share of burning holes in the sky and lawn-mowing over open water, though.
Advanced is the same for both tracks, the FRS is about 6 weeks longer for VP.
We had a PMA-290 brief today, it does seem like MMA is alive and a reality someday.

 

[FLYTPAY]

ES-3's were an awesome capability. It still kills me to think that the S-3B is going away, even with the new LANTIRN capability.

 

[phrogpilot73]

I have to say though that you will be required to turn gay now.

Did I miss something in his post? I didn't see him mention that he got jets, is going to become an NFO, or that he attrited and is headed to the world of the blackshoes... He didn't get helos - so the only conclusion that I must come to is that he must now turn bi.

 

[Steve Wilkins]

Did I miss something in his post? I didn't see him mention that he got jets, is going to become an NFO, or that he attrited and is headed to the world of the blackshoes... He didn't get helos - so the only conclusion that I must come to is that he must now turn bi.

Half gay is still gay.

 

[Fezz CB]

Half gay is still gay.

Everyone is supposedly half gay :icon_wink