USN aviator vs USMC aviator - fixed wing vs rotary wing

[propanelord]

I am an enlisted Marine, and I graduated bachelor's degree in May, and I am still fighting to try to get my medical records fixed. I think the Marine Corps recruiter doesn't want to touch me anymore because I have too much drama and paperwork. I got a 55/8/8/8/57 on the ASTB.

Regardless of the possibility that nobody will want to entertain my medical waiver, if I would really be happy to serve, and be really happy to fly anything, even if it is a giant soda can with a wing, but I would prefer to fly fixed wing, am I crazy to not try to commission as a USN aviator instead of a USMC aviator? I realize being an officer in any branch is a whole lot more than MOS and/or a whole lot more than flying. I am excited to serve my country with a greater responsibility, regardless of any machine(s) involved.

Obviously, there are people who spend years fighting trying to enlist and/or spend years fighting trying to commission in any branch of service, and then ultimately succeed. I have to accept that I could be one of those people. There are not many Marine Corps officer recruiters, and they are far away and they may expect any applicants to put in mountainous effort driving to see the officer recruiter. It seems like most Navy recruiters are Ensigns... is that true? Are they more common? There's a certain point where maybe I have to just join whatever if any branch will take me because at the end of the day, time is money.

I'm in my mid-to-late 20s, so age limits are also a consideration. I've already invested hundreds of hours into this process and want to make the best decision regarding which commissioning path(s) to pursue.

I tried to get my FAA medical certificate so I could begin flying on my own dime as a civilian while waiting-to-hopefully-apply-for-a-military-flight-contract, but due to smoking weed and drinking alcohol when I was 15 and 16 I have to submit to tens of thousands of dollars in alcohol and drug testing paid out of pocket. If I temporarily give up on FAA medical certificate for now, and then someday as a hypothetically successful military pilot, I ever want to convert any future military pilot ratings or military pilot hours to FAA ratings, I will likely have to ask a squadron or group or whoever leader to excuse me from work so that I can go to alcoholics anonymous, pee in a cup, and blow in an alcohol breath machine semi monthly, so that the FAA will grant me a certificate. Has anyone heard of a then-currently-active USMC, USN, USAF, USA, or USCG aviator having to do that to get an FAA certificate? I can't imagine that is a good look in terms of optics to your leadership.

The Marine Corps already waived the 15-year-old childhood drinking and smoking when I enlisted. I don't think any military BUMED and/or other people significantly care about that now, but the FAA certainly does

Thank you

 

[FormerRecruitingGuru]

words

You have posted and asked similar questions and making multiple threads. Like what has been mentioned before, please spend more time researching and reading easy to access material than wasting time developing lengthy speeches and posts.

 

[propanelord]

You have posted and asked similar questions and making multiple threads. Like what has been mentioned before, please spend more time researching and reading easy to access material than wasting time developing lengthy speeches and posts.

Howdy sir, long time no see. small world!

 

[Roger_Waveoff]

Until you have an approved aviation contract with your name on it from both branches, there isn't even a decision to make. So shoot your shot and make them tell you no. Yeah, depending on where you are it can be a significant time investment. Neither branch has any shortage of qualified officer applicants. Sorry if that's not what you wanted to hear.

FAA medical certificate is not simply a paperwork drill because you're a military pilot. It is an entirely separate process done via a civilian Aviation Medical Examiner (AME). Your best bet is to just find one (there is a locator on the FAA website) and ask for a consultation. They can tell you exactly what the process will be.

 

[propanelord]

Until you have an approved aviation contract with your name on it from both branches, there isn't even a decision to make. So shoot your shot and make them tell you no. Yeah, depending on where you are it can be a significant time investment. Neither branch has any shortage of qualified officer applicants. Sorry if that's not what you wanted to hear.

FAA medical certificate is not simply a paperwork drill because you're a military pilot. It is an entirely separate process done via a civilian Aviation Medical Examiner (AME). Your best bet is to just find one (there is a locator on the FAA website) and ask for a consultation. They can tell you exactly what the process will be.

Sir, thank you very much for the response.

While I will always ask follow-up questions and/or be disappointed by an answer, I appreciate the truth and reality. Conversely, if I perceive sugarcoating, that is something that would elicit a negative reaction from me.

Is it generally considered acceptable to be simultaneously pursuing officer aviation opportunities with multiple branches, provided that an applicant is transparent with everyone involved? I was not sure whether that is viewed as normal or as a faux pas within the recruiting world. I have a lot more to say, and a relevant personal story to share, but as RecruitingGuru astutely pointed out, I am too wordy, so I will stow that, at least for the time being.

Regarding the FAA side, I have spoken with several AMEs and have received significantly different guidance regarding the HIMS process. The only consistent theme has been that obtaining an initial FAA medical certificate may be a very expensive undertaking in my particular situation.

Again, I do really appreciate it.

 

[exNavyOffRec]

I am an enlisted Marine, and I graduated bachelor's degree in May, and I am still fighting to try to get my medical records fixed. I think the Marine Corps recruiter doesn't want to touch me anymore because I have too much drama and paperwork. I got a 55/8/8/8/57 on the ASTB.

Regardless of the possibility that nobody will want to entertain my medical waiver, if I would really be happy to serve, and be really happy to fly anything, even if it is a giant soda can with a wing, but I would prefer to fly fixed wing, am I crazy to not try to commission as a USN aviator instead of a USMC aviator? I realize being an officer in any branch is a whole lot more than MOS and/or a whole lot more than flying. I am excited to serve my country with a greater responsibility, regardless of any machine(s) involved.

Obviously, there are people who spend years fighting trying to enlist and/or spend years fighting trying to commission in any branch of service, and then ultimately succeed. I have to accept that I could be one of those people. There are not many Marine Corps officer recruiters, and they are far away and they may expect any applicants to put in mountainous effort driving to see the officer recruiter. It seems like most Navy recruiters are Ensigns... is that true? Are they more common? There's a certain point where maybe I have to just join whatever if any branch will take me because at the end of the day, time is money.

I'm in my mid-to-late 20s, so age limits are also a consideration. I've already invested hundreds of hours into this process and want to make the best decision regarding which commissioning path(s) to pursue.

I tried to get my FAA medical certificate so I could begin flying on my own dime as a civilian while waiting-to-hopefully-apply-for-a-military-flight-contract, but due to smoking weed and drinking alcohol when I was 15 and 16 I have to submit to tens of thousands of dollars in alcohol and drug testing paid out of pocket. If I temporarily give up on FAA medical certificate for now, and then someday as a hypothetically successful military pilot, I ever want to convert any future military pilot ratings or military pilot hours to FAA ratings, I will likely have to ask a squadron or group or whoever leader to excuse me from work so that I can go to alcoholics anonymous, pee in a cup, and blow in an alcohol breath machine semi monthly, so that the FAA will grant me a certificate. Has anyone heard of a then-currently-active USMC, USN, USAF, USA, or USCG aviator having to do that to get an FAA certificate? I can't imagine that is a good look in terms of optics to your leadership.

The Marine Corps already waived the 15-year-old childhood drinking and smoking when I enlisted. I don't think any military BUMED and/or other people significantly care about that now, but the FAA certainly does

Thank you

USMC normally sends aviation applicants to NAMI to get screened, are you saying NAMI has declined you? Did you submit medical records to the USMC recruiter and if so that recruiter would most likely send them to NAMI for prescreen and approval to send you down there. If they said no you are probably at a full stop in this process. If NAMI has not said "no" to giving you a flight physical then it could be the recruiter was told by those who have to approve your application it won't be approved.

No most USN recruiters are not Ensigns, they are generally LT's or CPO's, you probably saw a person on OHARP or someone stashed waiting to class up for school, or reservist on AD orders.

Actions have consequences, what you did while you were younger absolutely matters now to BUMED/NAMI/USN and probably the USMC. I have seen several people who were waived to come in enlisted, then were denied to go officer due to the non-medical waiver being denied for actions prior to enlisting, or were denied to commission based on medical past. In the medical cases the letter would say something like "not qualified for commissioned service but qualified for continued enlisted service".

 

[Griz882]

Former enlisted Marine here…I tried three times to get to OCS and I had a pretty solid record with good accomplishments. In the end, the Corps didn’t see me as officer material. But…after my second try at USMC OCS I applied to the navy, army and USAF. I got laughed at by the AF but picked up by the navy (AOCS) and army (WOFT). The application is free and these days you don’t even have to pay for the postage stamp. Apply for everything.

 

[propanelord]

Former enlisted Marine here…I tried three times to get to OCS and I had a pretty solid record with good accomplishments. In the end, the Corps didn’t see me as officer material. But…after my second try at USMC OCS I applied to the navy, army and USAF. I got laughed at by the AF but picked up by the navy (AOCS) and army (WOFT). The application is free and these days you don’t even have to pay for the postage stamp. Apply for everything.

You failed with two different USMC air contract cycles, correct? (I think each cycle has three boards, and then after the third and final board, if you weren't selected, you have to apply again next cycle...)

Did your USMC MEPS officer physical/accession-pysical/screening and your USMC NAMI physical/screening both carry over to the Navy? So you didn't have to repeat those things? I also am under the impression the OSS and/or recruiting office has to spend a lot of coin for a ~3+ day NAMI trip to fly you to Milton or Pensacola or Panama City or whatever it is. Obviously, NAMI doesn't apply to the USAF or USA, they have their own separate aviation medical organizations, but hopefully the MEPS screening is still good

I didn't realize I could personally apply? I thought the recruiters had to submit the applications at my direction/request?

USMC normally sends aviation applicants to NAMI to get screened, are you saying NAMI has declined you?

Actions have consequences, what you did while you were younger absolutely matters now to BUMED/NAMI/USN and probably the USMC. I have seen several people who were waived to come in enlisted, then were denied to go officer due to the non-medical waiver being denied for actions prior to enlisting, or were denied to commission based on medical past. In the medical cases the letter would say something like "not qualified for commissioned service but qualified for continued enlisted service".

Former enlisted Marine here…I tried three times to get to OCS and I had a pretty solid record with good accomplishments. In the end, the Corps didn’t see me as officer material. But…after my second try at USMC OCS I applied to the navy, army and USAF. I got laughed at by the AF but picked up by the navy (AOCS) and army (WOFT). The application is free and these days you don’t even have to pay for the postage stamp. Apply for everything.

I have never been to NAMI, and I have never applied to go to NAMI. No one has ever tried to send me to NAMI. I know most people would probably say, 'why did you even raise the topic of NAMI? One step at a time'. But I suspect with my situation, every step in the process will require strategy and be an uphill climb. Nothing will go as planned.

I have never been to MEPS for commissioning. MEPS station denied me entry; MEPS wouldn't even schedule me for an in-person screening. MEPS said I didn't fit the standards to enlist or commission in any military branch, let alone commission in a ground or law role in the USMC. I couldn't even crawl, let alone walk or run. The MEPS XO, who isn't a marine or sailor, and the MEPS USMC liason, allegedly was telling my recruiters that my records didn't make sense so I must be a fraudster and they didn't want me in their facility and that the recruiter should be calling SJA to have me prosecuted (The recruiters did not call SJA as far as I know, but the officer-commissioing-USMC-recruiters decided, at least for now, that I was too much headache and I needed to fix my shit, and that if I couldn't fix it, they wanted to wait "two years" for the MEPS XO to PCS, and for me to give up on flying, and hopefully do a ground contract). Nevertheless, even with stuff(s) purportedly now-newly-fixed, I would need NAMI medical waiver, and before that, a MEPS/accesion medical waiver.

My childhood history of drinking alcohol and smoking marijuana would probably not cause me any issues, since that stuff is ten years ago. I know company grade officers with DUI/DWI(s), and I have never even so much as been accused of anything that heinous. The USMC officer recruiters said they didn't even need to run a new moral waiver since the old moral waiver from enlistment was accepted before I went to Parris Island. Their words not mine; They did not even spent one moment worrying about moral; all their issues were medical.

However, admittedly, my intuition and speculation is, it's a total package thing - Current officers with a DUI/DWI might have gone to Harvard summa cum laude, STEM degree, and had no medical waiver, 9/9/9 ASTB, etc. They kick my ass in every other competitive aspect - versus in regard to my pedigree, other than zero tattoos and a decent ASTB and already being a prior service non-com officer, I have drama in every single aspect of getting cleared for an application. And not a prestigious history as far as education. Also, some of the officers with DUI/DWI might've gotten their charge at TBS after they already had their foot in the door... I'm not positive I know any commissioned officers who successfully got a DUI/DWI/OVI waived during initial accession. And I know DUI/DWI/OVI is kind of a bizarre thing to hyper zero in on... Again, I've never had one, that's just a very common form of military misconduct I used as an example. Thankfully, I have never been accused of anything that heinous as a child, and have no adult history of legal infractions

 

[Griz882]

First, it was a long time ago for me, so clearly the rules have changed, and as I recall the division had one OCS board (for all officer types) twice a year. Even in the ancient days you still had to go through an officer recruiter (except for army WO where you used an ordinary crimp). I didn’t go to MEPS for my AOCS application, I just went to the base hospital and got a physical with the extra aviator stuff (remember, in my day there was a separate Navy school for aviation officers called AOCS that isn’t around anymore). To the best of my antique knowledge no one outside the navy doc who did my physical ever looked over my enlisted medical record.

All that said, it sounds like you’ve got issues outside the application process. I’d talk to your corpsman and then climb the chain of command to your battalion surgeon to get your medical records sorted out. If you’re in the Corps, clearly you are medically fit to serve “in any branch of the service” so ask for a medical records review and get it sorted out. Any half-assed staff NCO in your platoon/company should be willing to help you navigate that, just tell them what you’re after.

 

[propanelord]

I just edited my previous message for clarity; hopefully it is slightly improved. I do apologize for such a broad message, but I would love to hear what any experts or experienced service members have to say about any of these bizarre scenarios.

First, it was a long time ago for me, so clearly the rules have changed, and as I recall the division had one OCS board (for all officer types) twice a year. Even in the ancient days you still had to go through an officer recruiter (except for army WO where you used an ordinary crimp). I didn’t go to MEPS for my AOCS application, I just went to the base hospital and got a physical with the extra aviator stuff (remember, in my day there was a separate Navy school for aviation officers called AOCS that isn’t around anymore). To the best of my antique knowledge no one outside the navy doc who did my physical ever looked over my enlisted medical record.

All that said, it sounds like you’ve got issues outside the application process. I’d talk to your corpsman and then climb the chain of command to your battalion surgeon to get your medical records sorted out. If you’re in the Corps, clearly you are medically fit to serve “in any branch of the service” so ask for a medical records review and get it sorted out. Any half-assed staff NCO in your platoon/company should be willing to help you navigate that, just tell them what you’re after.

I appreciate the response.

After MEPS rejected my entry a second time, I spent the next several months attacking the medical chain. The full story would involve roughly seven HMCs, a regimental surgeon, multiple battalion-level physicians, a USMC CWO5, a First Sergeant, lawyers, Genesis, BUMED, SAR requests, recruiters, and a division staffing shortage....

The primary issue is not really my enlisted medical record. The bigger problem is my childhood civilian medical record from before I ever joined the Marine Corps. Allegedly, medical drama and needed waivers for true bona fide medical history are complicated by civilian medical records that did not belong to me but were a stranger's, became mixed into my civilian third part hosptial file, which significantly complicated matters once Genesis began pulling civilian records (Genesis has crazy technology and powers to view civilian medical records at the click of a button nowadays; some of you may or may not realize)

After a very long process, BUMED completed a review of my medical history. Their finding was essentially:

"Said Named Marine does NOT meet the Marine Corps' medical standards to continue serving as an enlisted Marine due to history of X, Y, and/or Z... But we recommend the Marine Corps retains him anyway."

The situation is purportedly much improved now, but I will require waivers if I ever make it far enough in the officer and aviation accession process. Hell, I would need waivers just to enlist in any branch today, let alone pursue aviation as an officer.

That is also why I am asking questions about Navy, Marine Corps, Army, Air Force, and Guard/Reserve paths simultaneously. I have learned the hard way that every step of this process seems to take months, and sometimes years.

Truly, thank you.