AircraftGeek513
Well-Known Member
June 3rd of this year is the scheduled AV-8B Sundown Ceremony
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USMC Harrier Sundown
- Thread starter AircraftGeek513
- Start date
I'll use this opportunity to highlight the fact that STOVL aircraft are, and have always been, a complete waste of resources. Amphibs should carry amphibious things that go ashore, and supporting fixed wing aircraft should be on proper aircraft carriers.
Did a Harrier guy shit on your pancakes?
I assume it as hovering over them...
I agree when they are operated from what are essentially capital ships that happen to be amphibs. When the day comes that they are flown from non-traditional platforms too ubiquitous to completely track, then they could hit a sweet spot.
The Harrier is a unique airplane with a storied history. However...
Using STOVL jets that way is highly unlikely with our political and military structure (even as twisted as it's been by the current administration).
Under current doctrine, I largely agree with @Brett327. The cost and design compromises to equip a tactical jet with STOVL capability make it a less capable combat platform than a similar airplane with conventional runway or CATOBAR capability. In the case of F-35B, perceived need for a hovering jet cost the whole program time and money to develop a variant that now costs more to get airborne with less.
If your country happens to have aircraft carriers and runways, why bother adding STOVL capes to a design?
Using STOVL jets that way is highly unlikely with our political and military structure (even as twisted as it's been by the current administration).
Under current doctrine, I largely agree with @Brett327. The cost and design compromises to equip a tactical jet with STOVL capability make it a less capable combat platform than a similar airplane with conventional runway or CATOBAR capability. In the case of F-35B, perceived need for a hovering jet cost the whole program time and money to develop a variant that now costs more to get airborne with less.
If your country happens to have aircraft carriers and runways, why bother adding STOVL capes to a design?
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These are great points and educating!
I always presumed doctrine was to get the STOVL jets off the amphib deck to an inland expeditionary operating base - highway or a "long enough" piece of hard stand and support troops at the forward edge of the battle area and quick turn from your hasty operating base/FARP, etc.
If we’re storming the beaches of Normandy, Greenland, or wherever, why not use shore and carrier-based aircraft that can return to where they have regular resupply of fuel, ammo, parts, and relief pilots? That is way less shit for your MEU to haul ashore (or more room for other MEU fighting/logistics equipment), and we’ve demonstrated our ability to conduct CAS and DAS hundreds of miles from friendly basing without operating expensive and finicky jets from austere locations vulnerable to enemy fire.
Thanks for highlighting this Chuck. You would think the experts looking at engineering and budget problems would first understand the problem set before deeming the appropriate solution.
The original purpose of the British Harrier was to land on short landing strips (highway, runway, exped airfields) and fly underneath Soviet air defense systems in mainland Europe. The Marines piggybacked the idea when they realized the Navy was never going to give them big deck carriers.
There is no way the Marines are going to give up any level of command and control to the Navy or Air Force when it comes to air support. In short, The Navy created its own problems.
And yet, in practice, they do. Most of the air support for USMC in Afghanistan and Iraq was with Air Force and Navy iron. The Navy didn’t give Marines control of the LHDs, either.
So why be so parochial about MEU air support?
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A couple reasons. The vast majority of Marine air support doesn’t involve dropping bombs on a target. Secondly, the ability for us to “own” airspace relies on having an ability to defend it. Largely provided by Marine TACAIR. In practice, that ownership means when aircraft come to work into our airspace, we have the biggest (If not all) say in how it is employed. That has probably been transparent to you. It also gives us a seat at the big air planning table. You guys are focusing on the ship as the biggest issue, but it extends way further into how we operate as a multi-domain task force. We can debate STOVL vs non-STOVL all day long - but that was a problem created by budget crunchers years ago.
I watched a ship captain pull a boat off station to do a crossing the line ceremony in the middle of a named op. In doing so, It pushed our alert lines out of range. Color me skeptical about Navy commanders and their priorities. Risk at sea does not equal risk ashore.