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[FlyNavy03]

since 1982, there have been 512 deaths Robinson crashes worldwide. How might the Bell 206 compare?

You want me to compare mishaps of the entire line of Robinson products since its inception to one specific airframe from Bell? Though since you brought it up, I'm actually surprised it's so low. I mean, they've made more than 14,000 helicopters. Heck, the 5000+ R22s have logged more than 30 million flight hours in that time. Even if all of those deaths are in the R22, that's still one fatality for every 58,000 flight hours. Considering how junior your average R22 pilot is and the fact that they're used by a lot of smaller organizations, that's actually pretty impressive. Not exactly a death trap. As far as the R66 goes, they redesigned the empennage in 2023, which should help with the mast bumping.

I just don't think there's another realistic option out there. The EC-130 or Bell 505 would probably be the closest, but even those are an extra $1M per copy.

 

[ChuckMK23]

You want me to compare mishaps of the entire line of Robinson products since its inception to one specific airframe from Bell? Though since you brought it up, I'm actually surprised it's so low. I mean, they've made more than 14,000 helicopters. Heck, the 5000+ R22s have logged more than 30 million flight hours in that time. Even if all of those deaths are in the R22, that's still one fatality for every 58,000 flight hours. Considering how junior your average R22 pilot is and the fact that they're used by a lot of smaller organizations, that's actually pretty impressive. Not exactly a death trap. As far as the R66 goes, they redesigned the empennage in 2023, which should help with the mast bumping.

I just don't think there's another realistic option out there. The EC-130 or Bell 505 would probably be the closest, but even those are an extra $1M per copy.

Who in the Navy judges the performance of COPT-R , as far as outcomes go. Who says "this is working and I want more!"?

 

[Griz882]

You want me to compare mishaps of the entire line of Robinson products since its inception to one specific airframe from Bell? Though since you brought it up, I'm actually surprised it's so low. I mean, they've made more than 14,000 helicopters. Heck, the 5000+ R22s have logged more than 30 million flight hours in that time. Even if all of those deaths are in the R22, that's still one fatality for every 58,000 flight hours. Considering how junior your average R22 pilot is and the fact that they're used by a lot of smaller organizations, that's actually pretty impressive. Not exactly a death trap. As far as the R66 goes, they redesigned the empennage in 2023, which should help with the mast bumping.

I just don't think there's another realistic option out there. The EC-130 or Bell 505 would probably be the closest, but even those are an extra $1M per copy.

We’ll have to agree to disagree, but the Robinson is simply not a good trainer and I know plenty of Robby students who struggle when they move from a machine that has a gross weight of 2700 to one that is above 6000. I admit there isn’t much out there, and there isn’t much the services can do about it, but this is the wrong move. Cheaper does not always equal less expensive.

 

[Randy Daytona]

You want me to compare mishaps of the entire line of Robinson products since its inception to one specific airframe from Bell? Though since you brought it up, I'm actually surprised it's so low. I mean, they've made more than 14,000 helicopters. Heck, the 5000+ R22s have logged more than 30 million flight hours in that time. Even if all of those deaths are in the R22, that's still one fatality for every 58,000 flight hours. Considering how junior your average R22 pilot is and the fact that they're used by a lot of smaller organizations, that's actually pretty impressive. Not exactly a death trap. As far as the R66 goes, they redesigned the empennage in 2023, which should help with the mast bumping.

I just don't think there's another realistic option out there. The EC-130 or Bell 505 would probably be the closest, but even those are an extra $1M per copy.

The Robinson R-22/44 are the only non type rated helicopters I know of that have a Special FAA regulation delineating extra training: SFAR-73.

Don’t know if I could get used to the T-Bar either.

That said, those who have flown Robinsons always demonstrated the ability to manage power.

Interesting that you are not in favor of the 505 - if I remember correctly, that rotor system is from the 206L4 and is a forgiving high inertia system.

 

[ChuckMK23]

The Robinson R-22/44 are the only non type rated helicopters I know of that have a Special FAA regulation delineating extra training: SFAR-73.

Don’t know if I could get used to the T-Bar either.

That said, those who have flown Robinsons always demonstrated the ability to manage power.

Interesting that you are not in favor of the 505 - if I remember correctly, that rotor system is from the 206L4 and is a forgiving high inertia system.

I think the argument he's trying to make was around the capital/leasing costs of the 505 are just too high for the Navy primary training mission.

 

[FlyNavy03]

I think the argument he's trying to make was around the capital/leasing costs of the 505 are just too high for the Navy primary training mission.

That's part of it, but also just that the lack of a throttle or CBs in the 505 mean that you can't simulate any EPs in the aircraft.

Interesting that you are not in favor of the 505 - if I remember correctly, that rotor system is from the 206L4 and is a forgiving high inertia system.

That's very true. The 505 is a dream to autorotate for that reason. Almost too good for an ab initio trainer. Great for the IP, but easy for the students to develop bad habits doing things that they can't get away with in other airframes, especially something as Nr sensitive as the TH-73 they'll go to.

 

[FlyNavy03]

Who in the Navy judges the performance of COPT-R , as far as outcomes go. Who says "this is working and I want more!"?

That job belongs to CNAF and CNATRA and that's almost verbatim what they are saying. A lot of that has to do with cost savings (~$230k/student) and time savings (COPT-R studs wing about 7 months faster), but the COPT-R studs who have winged are also averaging about 5-10 NSS points above average. We're just now getting the first group of COPT-R graduates from the FRS so fleet data is still forthcoming.

 

[croakerfish]

the COPT-R studs who have winged are also averaging about 5-10 NSS points above average.

Please tell me that CNATRA doesn’t think this is a worthwhile data point.

 

[Mouselovr]

the COPT-R studs who have winged are also averaging about 5-10 NSS points above average. We're just now getting the first group of COPT-R graduates from the FRS so fleet data is still forthcoming.

Please tell me that CNATRA doesn’t think this is a worthwhile data point.

Something to keep an eye out for was up to this point, COPTR grads ONLY trained on 57s and ONLY out of HT28. As a recent winger, there was a huge cultural difference between the 3 squadrons (spoiler, 28 was one of the good ones).....I'd be really curious to see if there's any difference between COPTR 73 v 57s studs and once they are training in all 3 squadrons...

But the higher NSS of COPTR grades makes perfect sense to me.
We all saw the same thing happen in the T6 with prior fixed-wing time.

Most of your "bang for your buck" to get a higher NSS in the HTs was based on early flights. They've already got rotary time under their belt, so naturally, most will earn higher grades early on. After the initial fam flights, there were very few opportunities to "bump up" an NSS as most grade cards were 4s.

Edit; I do think the program is great though as an observer. All the COPTR grad I've met so far really enjoyed their exp. They have been great fellow students in advance/FRS. Please keep it up to work on expanding the program.

 

[ChuckMK23]

Please tell me that CNATRA doesn’t think this is a worthwhile data point.

Yes. That's the point. And more importantly, it sounds like the Air Boss and CNATRA agree.

 

[phrogdriver]

Any idea if they'll reword the "Part 141-like curriculum" to something more Navy-ish FTI? I know you and I had chatted about how Navy contracting doesn't always know how to correctly translate words to the real world.



Word I got the other day from management is that the A-Star and the -130 are currently going through IFR certification. As you've commented on before, I can see the -125 not being a contender because of it's anti-anti-clockwise problem, but the -130 is an interesting option.

I believe it was said that the -125 was first, followed by the -130, but no timeline was given (if it's even known, given the shut down).

The 130 is also a clockwise-turning helicopter. Is basically a 125 with a bigger cabin and a fenestron tail rotor for tour operators.

 

[FlyNavy03]

Something to keep an eye out for was up to this point, COPTR grads ONLY trained on 57s and ONLY out of HT28...

Yeah, we're watching that now to see how it changes now that they're going to the -73 and being spread throughout the squadrons. It's actually funny that you mention good vs. no-so-good HT squadrons. Over the last 20 years I can tell you that that is very cyclical, with each squadron taking turns in each category. It's usually based on who the CO happens to be. The current CO of 28 was one of my 2Ps and is a really great guys and fantastic leader.

Please tell me that CNATRA doesn’t think this is a worthwhile data point.

Yes and no. It's a data point, and one of the very few quantifiable ones available, but no one is cheering in the streets because COPT-R NSS scores are higher. It more just indicates that there's no disadvantage at the HTs for the students who go through COPT-R. They're much more impressed by the cost and time savings, and the fact that it's freeing up much needed T-6 hours.

I've said it before. The number 1 reason COPT-R exists is to provide a relief-valve for the T-6. That isn't optional. If not for COPT-R we would have fallen well short of our selection needs this year. There really aren't any other options. Of course everything has its pros and cons and no solution will be perfect, but so far COPT-R has been a best-case-scenario. We're saving time, money, and I think the students are still getting fantastic aviation training. I know there will be second- and third- tier effects as these guys continue their careers, and I don't know how that will play out for the Navy, but considering the other changes I foresee happening in aviation and the military over the next 20 years, I doubt COPT-R will even be a blip on that radar. For the students, though, I think it's nothing but advantageous.

Remember, I'm a reservist with 24 years who has already promoted twice more than I ever thought I would. I also spent more than 12 years as an IP at the HTs. I know what COPT-R is doing because I've seen it. It's a good thing. If I didn't think so, I wouldn't bother to be on here.

If any of you are in the DFW area and want to see what COPT-R is all about for yourselves, hit me up. I think you'd be surprised.

 

[Griz882]

We're saving time, money, and I think the students are still getting fantastic aviation training. I know there will be second- and third- tier effects as these guys continue their careers, and I don't know how that will play out for the Navy, but considering the other changes I foresee happening in aviation and the military over the next 20 years, I doubt COPT-R will even be a blip on that radar. For the students, though, I think it's nothing but advantageous.

I believe COPT-R is a very valuable program that has simply made a mistake by picking a cheap trainer to maximize corporate profits, something I readily admit is a corporation responsibility. I admit that I am entirely not relevant to this decision (and we are just jawboning here), but if I were in the CNATRA office I’d say “You can keep the contract if you dump the Robinson.” That said, I also believe that if COPT-R renews the contract it will be eventually rolled in to the eventual Army training contract, “Flight School Next” - in short, this is the gateway drug to a service wide helicopter only training pipeline.

 

[Gatordev]

Most of your "bang for your buck" to get a higher NSS in the HTs was based on early flights. They've already got rotary time under their belt, so naturally, most will earn higher grades early on. After the initial fam flights, there were very few opportunities to "bump up" an NSS as most grade cards were 4s.

Up until now, that NSS bump would have been normalized prior to selection, since you can "contain" all the NSS data down to one squadron.

@FlyNavy03 do you know if, once all the squadrons are accepting COPT-R studs, are they going to do anything with the NSS data between the COPT-R and VT students? If the trend of a 5-10 NSS increase continues and there isn't something handled on the backside of the NSS, it gives a selection advantage to one group.

The 130 is also a clockwise-turning helicopter. Is basically a 125 with a bigger cabin and a fenestron tail rotor for tour operators.

Ah. I know it's a 125, but I thought the transmission was a change they did. Thanks for the correction.

 

[ChuckMK23]

I believe COPT-R is a very valuable program that has simply made a mistake by picking a cheap trainer to maximize corporate profits, something I readily admit is a corporation responsibility. I admit that I am entirely not relevant to this decision (and we are just jawboning here), but if I were in the CNATRA office I’d say “You can keep the contract if you dump the Robinson.” That said, I also believe that if COPT-R renews the contract it will be eventually rolled in to the eventual Army training contract, “Flight School Next” - in short, this is the gateway drug to a service wide helicopter only training pipeline.

It can't be coincidence that all three services (Army, AF, Navy/Marines/USCG) are taking disruptive approach to helicopter/rotorcraft pilot training. And all seem to be reaching similar conclusions.

I've gotten poo-poo'd when I have mentioned this before, but can a consolidated "Defense Flying School" for primary helo training be far off?