DoD hiring freeze

[WhiskeySierra6]

I think the Army and USAF have held on to those kinds of functions on their military side. I would always get that question when a USAF program wanted to test at PMRF... "Hey, who's your CE guy?" 50 years ago, Navy bases would probably have Seabees doing a lot of the BOS function. Today, most installations will have a CB as PWO, and usually a civil engineer as their deputy. That's really the extent of your Navy CB/CE expertise today. There's also this weird blurred line between who works for the Base and who works for NAVFAC. It gets complicated. Everything else is done by the BOS contractor, or you can work through NAVSUP to contract out specific jobs that the BOS folks can't do... like your HVAC example. /PUBLICWORKS101

CE here is about a 50/50 AD/Gov civilian split by my rough estimation. They're overall great but really resource limited. I don't envy them. Just using our HVAC as an example of contractors being the way to go.

 

[ChuckMK23]

CE here is about a 50/50 AD/Gov civilian split by my rough estimation. They're overall great but really resource limited. I don't envy them. Just using our HVAC as an example of contractors being the way to go.

I am the facilities manager for my office building and work closely with AF CE. CE is increasingly shifting to self-service. Also, their operating model is shifting away from actually doing work to running the ticketing and request systems to providing list of approved contractors and doing compliance to make sure any work from replacing ceiling tiles to plumbing repairs is in compliance with regs. Not surprising. This is the same model that Air Force cyber/it is moving to as well LOL

 

[Lawman]

I am the facilities manager for my office building and work closely with AF CE. CE is increasingly shifting to self-service. Also, their operating model is shifting away from actually doing work to running the ticketing and request systems to providing list of approved contractors and doing compliance to make sure any work from replacing ceiling tiles to plumbing repairs is in compliance with regs. Not surprising. This is the same model that Air Force cyber/it is moving to as well LOL

It sounds like they are following what the Army already did years ago. CE used to be an awesome tool to tap into if you needed things built where no real infrastructure existed. Those guys were all effectively tradesmen in a uniform.

The Regular Army doesn’t really have anything like that for the sort of inside buildings infrastructure. The constructive things we do have in uniform are more heavy equipment operators and shipping/forklift types in the transportation and engineering branches. That’s great when you want a connex moved or drainage and surface leveling, but when your home garrison building is decrepit and falling apart it’s either excess soldiers doing DIY, or Department of Public Works. It can be a crap shoot on when and if they will see the problem and tell you it’s not their responsibility (building sprinkler system leaking into office spaces being a recent example we dealt with).

The guard does a way better job at facilities management than active duty, but that’s part of the whole concept of ownership they get out of their people. “Joe” treats everything like it’s a cheap rental not realizing their next home was some other Joe’s cheap rental.

 

[Gatordev]

and who works for NAVFAC

Come on now...does anyone really "work" for NAVFAC? They seem to be the PMA-205 of base contracting.

A story I still chuckle at...

While working with the lead base facility guy for the RSNF hangar renovation that we were trying really hard to not call a renovation (I've forgotten what office exactly he was with...PWO?), he told a story of getting polo shirts done for some non-facility related social event. Apparently the NAVFAC office was in charge of coordinating the order. So, the NAVFAC rep reached out and said the shirt would be $35 and would be in on a certain date.

Fast forward to some date well past the promised date and the shirts came in...in a different color and ended up costing $55. The guy I was working with commented that this was a textbook NAVFAC operation...over-time, over-promised, and over-budget.

 

[Swanee]

So was Big Navy before the PPV model. You can almost always vote with your feet.

So I suppose while the model may save the Government money, it doesn't really increase the quality of the product?

Isn't the point to do both though? Save money and increase quality?

 

[OscarMyers]

So I suppose while the model may save the Government money, it doesn't really increase the quality of the product?

Isn't the point to do both though? Save money and increase quality?

From the horror stories I've heard from govt ran base housings I'd say there's at least an enforceable standard that PPV contract holders are held to. Its very prevalent by the constant stream of reviews/feedback requested, neighborhood events and and quality of facility care. (Almost to a fault from over reaction, as when our neighbors had to vacate they're house right before Christmas because of dishwasher leak induced mold...)

That being said, quality is not tied to BAH, so when it goes up, so does their profit margin... Here at Mugu its a little frustrating seeing rates going up and not seeing anything from it, but dollar for square foot PPV housing is still the best deal in SoCal.

Now if the waitlist and housing availability process was a little more transparent, that would be nice. Its a hot mess. Especially with California Natl Guard able to do an entire career here and Mugu housing also servicing Vandenburg. Its the wild west with who lives in this neighborhood.

 

[OscarMyers]

YMMV Apparently...
https://www.kcentv.com/article/news...left/500-dc306047-a18a-471d-9e46-ec0e15072838

 

[Lawman]

YMMV Apparently...
https://www.kcentv.com/article/news...left/500-dc306047-a18a-471d-9e46-ec0e15072838
View attachment 43037

Nothing about this is surprising. Housing is really rode hard and put away wet on post. Most of it is very old (35+ years).

Not really any good solution either with the contractor or the on post unit facilities. I wouldn’t expect Fort Hood DPW sweep a floor without screwing it up. They nearly flooded the whole upstairs of a hanger trying to unclog a toilet.

 

[Swanee]

Nothing about this is surprising. Housing is really rode hard and put away wet on post. Most of it is very old (35+ years).

Not really any good solution either with the contractor or the on post unit facilities. I wouldn’t expect Fort Hood DPW sweep a floor without screwing it up. They nearly flooded the whole upstairs of a hanger trying to unclog a toilet.

So what's the fix other than to do what the normal civilian world does- build a new house or take the old house down to studs and remodel/renovate it?

And why does the DoD expect that a 35 year old rental house to be habitable if they haven't invested in it?

I fear the real answer is to spend money.

This is like buying a new Pontiac Grand Am in 1990 and then complaining that it's a rusted out, broken down, money pit in 2025. Of course it is.

Why are we surprised and why don't we just build new housing every 15-20 years?

 

[Swanee]

From the horror stories I've heard from govt ran base housings I'd say there's at least an enforceable standard that PPV contract holders are held to. Its very prevalent by the constant stream of reviews/feedback requested, neighborhood events and and quality of facility care. (Almost to a fault from over reaction, as when our neighbors had to vacate they're house right before Christmas because of dishwasher leak induced mold...)

That being said, quality is not tied to BAH, so when it goes up, so does their profit margin... Here at Mugu its a little frustrating seeing rates going up and not seeing anything from it, but dollar for square foot PPV housing is still the best deal in SoCal.

Now if the waitlist and housing availability process was a little more transparent, that would be nice. Its a hot mess. Especially with California Natl Guard able to do an entire career here and Mugu housing also servicing Vandenburg. Its the wild west with who lives in this neighborhood.

Perhaps we should be able to limit their profit margin. The US Gov doesn't, and cannot, operate on the idea of profit margins because we have to provide a service no matter the costs. These PPVs have to provide that service, so when we give them more money we expect that to be invested into the product. If it isn't we should take that money back.

 

[WhiskeySierra6]

Perhaps we should be able to limit their profit margin. The US Gov doesn't, and cannot, operate on the idea of profit margins because we have to provide a service no matter the costs. These PPVs have to provide that service, so when we give them more money we expect that to be invested into the product. If it isn't we should take that money back.

Because then you would have to negotiate every single variable which would either take years to do or you would just get no bid into oblivion. The reason we let contractors do this is because all of the risk is on them. The rub is you have to hold them accountable to the services that are contracted to provide. Write a shitty contract...get shitty service.

 

[Swanee]

Because then you would have to negotiate every single variable which would either take years to do or you would just get no bid into oblivion. The reason we let contractors do this is because all of the risk is on them. The rub is you have to hold them accountable to the services that are contracted to provide. Write a shitty contract...get shitty service.

So the flip side is that we give them 100% BAH and they get to provide a shitty service?

We should probably just stop with the PPV I have yet to see where a PPV is a benefit to the service member over other options out in town.

 

[sevenhelmet]

Why are we surprised and why don't we just build new housing every 15-20 years?

For the same reason that we don't buy new trainers until the old ones are shitting engine blades and the wings are literally falling off.

It costs money. Nobody cares that it costs more to wait until it's an emergency- it only matters if you can punt the problem to the next guy / administration.

 

[WhiskeySierra6]

So the flip side is that we give them 100% BAH and they get to provide a shitty service?

We should probably just stop with the PPV I have yet to see where a PPV is a benefit to the service member over other options out in town.

Joint Base McGuire Dix Lakehurst, NJ. Come on by for a visit. For the low low price of $4k in BAH I get a 3k sqft house with a 2 car garage and utilities on base run by United Communities who is fantastic. Quick Redfin search yields a similar house (3k sqft one car garage) 45 minutes away for $5k/MO in rent utilities not included. It's a big heterogeneous country.

If the service is shitty either the contract isn't being enforced by the COR or the contract isn't good...or both.

 

[Swanee]

Joint Base McGuire Dix Lakehurst, NJ. Come on by for a visit. For the low low price of $4k in BAH I get a 3k sqft house with a 2 car garage and utilities on base run by United Communities who is fantastic. Quick Redfin search yields a similar house (3k sqft one car garage) 45 minutes away for $5k/MO in rent utilities not included. It's a big heterogeneous country.

If the service is shitty either the contract isn't being enforced by the COR or the contract isn't good...or both.

So how do we fix that?