Value of collaterals

[Hotdogs]

And with this, there is no reason for anyone here to every offer their opinions or life experiences to these threads?
Understanding our contributors and what drives them, their experiences, where they are coming from is what brings strength and value to the discussion.

I am at a loss as to why anyone here feels the need to make personal attacks.
If you find something said to be of no interest to you, then just don't respond.
But don't speak for the rest of us.

Play victim all you want - but your experience is different than most Marines I have encountered. You literally tried to defend "collaterals" as a key learning block for Marine aviators, then flash your length of service around like a badge of honor as if it made you more credible. Then you had nothing to offer with regards to why they're ineffective or the avenues for improvement. Your argument is a stark contrast to the reality of most ready rooms, and you're the guy we all rolled our eyes at simultaneously for drinking the kool-aid.

I'm sorry but having the LPA running around throwing up voting assistance posters or making sure the lost and found order was written correctly is a not critical to career development. Most of us know collaterals are for optics with a few exceptions.

Not intentionally trying to derail this thread so we can agree to disagree.

 

[phrogdriver]

The value of collaterals varies.

Voting assistance officer is just something that has to be done by somebody. Then again, it shouldn't take more than a few hours a week, either.

OPSO and AMO are collaterals, too. I wouldn't want a CO to not have had those.

At the same time, to be good OPSO or AMO, you probably should have been a schedule writer or shop OIC first.

Is it good to be smothered by collaterals? Absolutely not. But there is some value in them, at least in an organization where pilots are expected to eventually help run things.

 

[ChuckMK23]

The value of collaterals varies.

Voting assistance officer is just something that has to be done by somebody. Then again, it shouldn't take more than a few hours a week, either.

OPSO and AMO are collaterals, too. I wouldn't want a CO to not have had those.

At the same time, to be good OPSO or AMO, you probably should have been a schedule writer or shop OIC first.

Is it good to be smothered by collaterals? Absolutely not. But there is some value in them, at least in an organization where pilots are expected to eventually help run things.

The AF model works well in a flying unit with the Director of Operations, Director of Training, and Director of Stan Eval having clearly scoped duties codified in flying regs. The trend for Vice/Deputy Commander is towards a career civillian, often GS-14 or 15 to provide long term continuity. The personnel /admin officer is often a GS as well.

 

[Hair Warrior]

The AF model works well in a flying unit with the Director of Operations, Director of Training, and Director of Stan Eval having clearly scoped duties codified in flying regs. The trend for Vice/Deputy Commander is towards a career civillian, often GS-14 or 15 to provide long term continuity. The personnel /admin officer is often a GS as well.

1. Why are those jobs civilians?
2. Are you talking about squadron-, group-, or wing-level?
3. What happens when they have to deploy? The civilians go too, or those jobs shift to military?

 

[insanebikerboy]

The trend for Vice/Deputy Commander is towards a career civillian, often GS-14 or 15 to provide long term continuity. The personnel /admin officer is often a GS as well.

Highly variable based upon wing. That hasn’t been the case anywhere I’ve been.

 

[ChuckMK23]

1. Why are those jobs civilians?
2. Are you talking about squadron-, group-, or wing-level?
3. What happens when they have to deploy? The civilians go too, or those jobs shift to military?

Generally at Wing, but some at squadron.

Given the number of emails as I get asking for volunteers to fill deployed GS positions at in Qatar, Guam, Diego Garcia, etc yes.

There dimply aren't enough rated officers at O-5:and above to go around.

 

[Hair Warrior]

Generally at Wing, but some at squadron.

Given the number of emails as I get asking for volunteers to fill deployed GS positions at in Qatar, Guam, Diego Garcia, etc yes.

There dimply aren't enough rated officers at O-5:and above to go around.

Dumb question, why does it have to be an O5? What’s wrong with an O4 TRAINO or OPSO?

 

[ChuckMK23]

Dumb question, why does it have to be an O5? What’s wrong with an O4 TRAINO or OPSO?

At squadron level yes - even rated 0-4s are in very short supply .. also, things very greatly between a fighter types and mobility wings and squadrons

 

[Hair Warrior]

It just strikes me as odd that a hardware unit would rely on a civilian volunteer for a key ground job overseas, when everything else I’m hearing is about “mobilization readiness” and you can’t force civilians to deploy like you can military.

 

[Flash]

The AF model works well in a flying unit with the Director of Operations, Director of Training, and Director of Stan Eval having clearly scoped duties codified in flying regs. The trend for Vice/Deputy Commander is towards a career civillian, often GS-14 or 15 to provide long term continuity. The personnel /admin officer is often a GS as well.

I think there are disadvantages to the USAF system too, where flyers have a little less 'skin in the game' that often times results in a bit less knowledge of how and why things work with maintenance and personnel.

 

[MIDNJAC]

I think there are disadvantages to the USAF system too, where flyers have a little less 'skin in the game' that often times results in a bit less knowledge of how and why things work with maintenance and personnel.

I mean, I don't know if we know much more than they do about how things "work" downstairs. Had to think for a second about whether it is the 3790 or 4790

 

[ChuckMK23]

It just strikes me as odd that a hardware unit would rely on a civilian volunteer for a key ground job overseas, when everything else I’m hearing is about “mobilization readiness” and you can’t force civilians to deploy like you can military.

Retaining the continuity of knowledge is what makes a GS in the billet work. Also the supplemental to go work creating PPTs for a GO in Al Udeid is quite lucrative.

 

[Flash]

I mean, I don't know if we know much more than they do about how things "work" downstairs. Had to think for a second about whether it is the 3790 or 4790

I tried to avoid any 'real' paperwork as a JO in maintenance but my time there still gave me an invaluable education.

 

[Griz882]

Generally at Wing, but some at squadron.

Given the number of emails as I get asking for volunteers to fill deployed GS positions at in Qatar, Guam, Diego Garcia, etc yes.

There dimply aren't enough rated officers at O-5:and above to go around.

Those jobs are likely coded as deployable. My last federal was one…and like Chuck I got a lot of “wanna come?” Emails.

 

[Hotdogs]

The value of collaterals varies.

Voting assistance officer is just something that has to be done by somebody. Then again, it shouldn't take more than a few hours a week, either.

OPSO and AMO are collaterals, too. I wouldn't want a CO to not have had those.

At the same time, to be good OPSO or AMO, you probably should have been a schedule writer or shop OIC first.

Is it good to be smothered by collaterals? Absolutely not. But there is some value in them, at least in an organization where pilots are expected to eventually help run things.

This is going to be a hot take... and I know it'll rustle some people's jimmys...

SAPR, EO, and SACO? Sure...There some value added in those roles (and have proven to be effective - motorcycle safety comes to mind). Not all collaterals are bad and many provide legitimate resources or processes in areas that need very careful attention. I just don't think we need pilots running around pushing paper and posing as legal officers, security managers, logistics or supply officers, or pretending to know how to run poorly managed contract IT systems. We have professionals who do those things - and actually go to school for them. If it doesn't involve Ops, Mx, or Stan/Safety/Tactics - Its probably a waste of a pilots time. Another issue is the level of oversight/emphasis given to some of these jobs. It goes back to risk and checking boxes during inspections to make commanders look good to their bosses during inspection season. 50% of collaterals could go away and squadron readiness wouldn't change a bit - and more importantly no one would give a fuck.

We need to quit holding people's hands. I'm sorry we don't need voting assistance. You want to vote? Go read the damn website and figure it out like an adult. It doesn't take a JO to tell you how to figure it out. Want to donate to NMCRS? Here's the brochure. Got Questions? Go to the website and call the hotline. Next thing you know we'll have tax assistance officers to cater to people who don't know how to use TurboTax (designed for a 9th grade reading level) and/or forcing JOs to schedule junior enlisted dental and medical appointments (Yes, it's happened). Why? Because some CG asked during a predeployment brief and all the field grade started having neurotic spams before the steamimg pile of good idea shit fell downhill.