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Osprey crash in Darwin, 3 fatalities

Gonzo08 said:
Sad news. The MV-22 strikes again. I can't believe this platform is the future of Carrier Onboard Delivery...
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Oh, you already know the mishap was caused by an engineering deficiency with the platform, or are you just rehashing the sensationalized bad press about the Osprey from 20 years ago?

In case you're not familiar, the USMC mission of the V-22 involves just a bit more risk than day-only milk runs to/from the CVN. Sure, it's logistics, but overland, and they also do Assault tasks -- apples & oranges.
 
IKE said:
Oh, you already know the mishap was caused by an engineering deficiency with the platform, or are you just rehashing the sensationalized bad press about the Osprey from 20 years ago?

In case you're not familiar, the USMC mission of the V-22 involves just a bit more risk than day-only milk runs to/from the CVN. Sure, it's logistics, but overland, and they also do Assault tasks -- apples & oranges.
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Point taken. Poor word choice to express anecdotal concerns from everyone I've ever talked about CVN Ospreys with.
 
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ChuckMK23 said:
Not trying to inject a thread jack - but listening to AB at Hook, it sounds like routine night ops are now a thing with CMV and the expansion of non-logistics capabilities continues.
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Yeah, I didn't mean to artificially narrow the scope of current or future COD ops, just highlight the risks involved with overland/Assault missions.

I'm also not defending CMV -ilities (availability, etc.); but those are different than safety-of-flight concerns.
 
Gonzo08 said:
Sad news. The MV-22 strikes again. I can't believe this platform is the future of Carrier Onboard Delivery...
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It would be helpful to know what the platform's post-IOC mishap rate is before drawing conclusions about its safety or viability to perform the COD mission. I honestly don't know what it is, but my presumption is that it is better that most people think.
 
Brett327 said:
It would be helpful to know what the platform's post-IOC mishap rate is before drawing conclusions about its safety or viability to perform the COD mission. I honestly don't know what it is, but my presumption is that it is better than most people think.
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The per-flight hour mishap rate is just a little bit worse than Army H-60s. The real issues to be talked about are the main causal factors behind each one. Vast majority of MV-22 mishaps since going IOC have been due to pilot error. The summer 2022 Purple Foxes crash was a very notable exception to that. We can talk all day about the viability/suitability of the aircraft for its missions, but one set of quantitative data that should drive some serious discussion is flight hours per pilot. It's not good right now, at all.

Healthy annual hours for a Marine V-22 pilot is generally considered around 120-130. I'll tell you very few are getting that unless they're on a MEU/deployed and have all the best aircraft and priority for parts/support. Every single 2P in my squadron is having to submit a waiver for FY mins (100). A lot of them didn't even come close. Our sims are good, very good in fact, but like any other they are NO substitute for real stick time. Especially for NVG flying. That's not a recipe for proficient pilots.
 
Roger_Waveoff said:
The per-flight hour mishap rate is just a little bit worse than Army H-60s. The real issues to be talked about are the main causal factors behind each one. Vast majority of MV-22 mishaps since going IOC have been due to pilot error. The summer 2022 Purple Foxes crash was a very notable exception to that. We can talk all day about the viability/suitability of the aircraft for its missions, but one set of quantitative data that should drive some serious discussion is flight hours per pilot. It's not good right now, at all.

Healthy annual hours for a Marine V-22 pilot is generally considered around 120-130. I'll tell you very few are getting that unless they're on a MEU/deployed and have all the best aircraft and priority for parts/support. Every single 2P in my squadron is having to submit a waiver for FY mins (100). A lot of them didn't even come close. Our sims are good, very good in fact, but like any other they are NO substitute for real stick time. Especially for NVG flying. That's not a recipe for proficient pilots.
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Wow! Not even making 100 hrs. I set my “personal” minimum against the Army National Guard minimum of 8 hrs a month (on average) but typically hit closer to 110. This year has been a tough year and I’ll probably hit 80 before my next annual but even at 100 I feel I need to fly more just to be good enough…and I have zero NVG and IFR hours to worry about!
 
Roger_Waveoff said:
The per-flight hour mishap rate is just a little bit worse than Army H-60s. The real issues to be talked about are the main causal factors behind each one. Vast majority of MV-22 mishaps since going IOC have been due to pilot error. The summer 2022 Purple Foxes crash was a very notable exception to that. We can talk all day about the viability/suitability of the aircraft for its missions, but one set of quantitative data that should drive some serious discussion is flight hours per pilot. It's not good right now, at all.

Healthy annual hours for a Marine V-22 pilot is generally considered around 120-130. I'll tell you very few are getting that unless they're on a MEU/deployed and have all the best aircraft and priority for parts/support. Every single 2P in my squadron is having to submit a waiver for FY mins (100). A lot of them didn't even come close. Our sims are good, very good in fact, but like any other they are NO substitute for real stick time. Especially for NVG flying. That's not a recipe for proficient pilots.
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Jesus effing Christ. Did the USMC not learn anything from the post sequestration years? We killed too many good folks because we couldn't get them flight hours. 120-130 hours a year for an AD pilot is criminal. 120-130 hours per year is what you'd expect out of an experienced part timer who isn't maintaining anything but basic currencies.
 
Swanee said:
Jesus effing Christ. Did the USMC not learn anything from the post sequestration years? We killed too many good folks because we couldn't get them flight hours. 120-130 hours a year for an AD pilot is criminal. 120-130 hours per year is what you'd expect out of an experienced part timer who isn't maintaining anything but basic currencies.
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Standard color on any F35 hotboard is red, with yellow sprinkles. Plenty of 100 hr waivers as well. Marine Corps can't pony up cash for flying, for T/O, or by ever accepting a maintenance phase in the deployment cycle to try to get ahead of the power curve.
 
bucka said:
Standard color on any F35 hotboard is red, with yellow sprinkles. Plenty of 100 hr waivers as well. Marine Corps can't pony up cash for flying, for T/O, or by ever accepting a maintenance phase in the deployment cycle to try to get ahead of the power curve.
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Is it the same story with Marine Legacy Hornet pilots?
 
ChuckMK23 said:
Is it the same story with Marine Legacy Hornet pilots?
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Can't say for sure. Think there may be a brief peak as squadrons shutter and parts consolidate, but otherwise it's hard to make reliable plans for training events across the flightline.
 
bucka said:
Standard color on any F35 hotboard is red, with yellow sprinkles. Plenty of 100 hr waivers as well. Marine Corps can't pony up cash for flying, for T/O, or by ever accepting a maintenance phase in the deployment cycle to try to get ahead of the power curve.
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No matter what your squadron, or group commander, or wing CG, or what the deputy commandant for aviation, says, THOSE HOURS ARE NOT OKAY.

There was a time when pilots got 1000 hours in their first tour. Those folks are wearing stars on their shoulders. That's the US military aviation arm that defeated the 5th largest military in the world (that was fresh off of a peer level conflict) in a matter of weeks. Those same folks are telling you that it's okay to get less than 100 a year, to not be able to have the hours to FCF an airplane on your first tour.


I've got some awesome bourbon from a recent trip to Louisville flowing through my veins right now, so I'll not type much more- but holy shit, stay safe. Your family values you a lot more than the Marine Corps ever will. Don't get yourself killed because you're trying to make your boss look good. Too many of our friends have done that already.
 
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