Navy Times SWO article (with a bit of CW)

[exNavyOffRec]

I found this article interesting, I knew there was some overmanning at JO level just not the amount I knew of.

The other interesting thing I found out is that the USN doesn't commission people into Intel, IP or CW at least that is what I learned from the article..........

"Adding to the glut is the fact that more than 20 percent of newly commissioned SWOs are on a career path that will see them leave the SWO world and transfer into other Navy jobs that don’t accept newly commissioned junior officers, such as intelligence and cryptologic warfare."

Why canât the Navy keep its surface warfare officers?

The Navy commissions nearly twice as many SWOs each year as it needs to fill positions on ships, leaving these newbies to compete for ship driving time and other hands-on experience needed to become a good surface warfare officer.

www.navytimes.com

 

[Jim123]

The other interesting thing I found out is that the USN doesn't commission people into Intel, IP or CW at least that is what I learned from the article..........

I'm sure I've met intel ensigns when I was in, but I guess they must have got there by being NPQ from other pipelines or aviation attrites rather than straight accessions, and I just figured the other 16xx communities worked the same way.

SWO-to-IP (and other communities) has been a thing for a long time and I think that's generally a good concept. Having a lot of your leadership spend their first few years in an unrestricted line community gives them a better foundation of what the "customer" needs. When two entities have a supporting-supported relationship but their worlds are a bit too far apart, it gets dysfunctional and the supported side gives up asking for stuff out of frustration.

Good examples of that relationship, that I saw over the years, included if various comm circuits were or weren't working (satellite, line of sight, over the horizon, data/voice/encrypted/etc.) and the comm guys had the mindset of "expected time of repair is __, I last checked up on it a few minutes ago, and in the meantime we can still use __ to maintain [partial] capability." Bad examples included nightly ops brief "OBTW theater-wide SIPRNET maintenance is scheduled for noon tomorrow and lasting up to __ hours..." Why is this only now being communicated down to the O-5 command level?? What broke, how long have they been planning this, and who is "they?" The comm guys weren't idiots in the second example (although the ones in the first one were very good), they just had poor SA and weren't operationally-minded.

 

[exNavyOffRec]

I'm sure I've met intel ensigns when I was in, but I guess they must have got there by being NPQ from other pipelines or aviation attrites rather than straight accessions, and I just figured the other 16xx communities worked the same way.

SWO-to-IP (and other communities) has been a thing for a long time and I think that's generally a good concept. Having a lot of your leadership spend their first few years in an unrestricted line community gives them a better foundation of what the "customer" needs. When two entities have a supporting-supported relationship but their worlds are a bit too far apart, it gets dysfunctional and the supported side gives up asking for stuff out of frustration.

Good examples of that relationship, that I saw over the years, included if various comm circuits were or weren't working (satellite, line of sight, over the horizon, data/voice/encrypted/etc.) and the comm guys had the mindset of "expected time of repair is __, I last checked up on it a few minutes ago, and in the meantime we can still use __ to maintain [partial] capability." Bad examples included nightly ops brief "OBTW theater-wide SIPRNET maintenance is scheduled for noon tomorrow and lasting up to __ hours..." Why is this only now being communicated down to the O-5 command level?? What broke, how long have they been planning this, and who is "they?" The comm guys weren't idiots in the second example (although the ones in the first one were very good), they just had poor SA and weren't operationally-minded.

I was being sarcastic and I guess it didn't come off as that, since in FY 21 via OCS there will be 99 Intel 99 IP and 73 CW commissioned, this doesn't include the few via USNA and NROTC. They ended up having a 0 goal for SWO-IP and SWO-CW the past FY as well.

I guess what got me is I emailed the author and pointed out the error, showed him the hard data to back up what I said and his response was he rec'd his info from the PAO, didn't even go to NRC or a source that has the manning documents for new accessions.

 

[SELRES_AMDO]

I met a guy at OCS that was SWO-Intel. I asked him why didn't he just go Intel like the others in the class and he said he wanted to be a SWO first. Whatever makes you happy.

 

[exNavyOffRec]

I met a guy at OCS that was SWO-Intel. I asked him why didn't he just go Intel like the others in the class and he said he wanted to be a SWO first. Whatever makes you happy.

So you met "the one", or maybe 1 of 5 but there weren't many of those.

 

[Brett327]

So you met "the one", or maybe 1 of 5 but there weren't many of those.

We have a SWO-IWO, or whatever that is. The person basically wrangles the ITs.

 

[exNavyOffRec]

We have a SWO-IWO, or whatever that is. The person basically wrangles the ITs.

There are many SWO-IW (aka SWO-CW) and SWO-IP, SWO-Intel was added years ago and quickly became a "no quota" designator after only a few were picked up, that is why I said he met "the one" lol

 

[jmj689]

The most disappointing part of that article/comment section isn't the poor sleep or the numerous ensigns for limited jobs or JO's feeling like they have no value, It was the rear admiral's quote about being interested in seeing how the SWO's change their opinions down their career. Why is he taking a wait and see approach when this study has been ongoing for years, especially after the SWO related collisions a few years ago? I hope leadership will be more proactive than that. Guess I have plenty to look forward to as a SWO "stab stab look stab" XD

 

[nittany03]

Forgot about this one.

"I am mocked daily by an aviator."

"How does he mock you?"

"He calls me by my first name and is generally pleasant to me. I think he hates me." ?

 

[Hair Warrior]

The most disappointing part of that article/comment section isn't the poor sleep or the numerous ensigns for limited jobs or JO's feeling like they have no value, It was the rear admiral's quote about being interested in seeing how the SWO's change their opinions down their career. Why is he taking a wait and see approach when this study has been ongoing for years, especially after the SWO related collisions a few years ago? I hope leadership will be more proactive than that. Guess I have plenty to look forward to as a SWO "stab stab look stab" XD

Eh, ya never know, maybe he just said that for the article. Admirals don’t always have to tell the outside public all their plans and internal decision points.

In terms of the SWO-IWC program, it has its pros and cons, obviously. Some people believe it creates a “bad SWO experience” for that individual JO because senior SWOs are less incentivized to invest long term mentoring, as they know they’ll lose the JO eventually to the IWC. I personally think the Navy could probably scratch the itch by including more at-sea time during NIOBC and/or more JO intel tours afloat. (Don’t ask me how many ships I’ve been on or for how long… and yet other service branches are asking me about naval stuff like I’m the expert.) Also, there are always URL officers who end up as an 18XX for whatever reason without a specified off-ramp.

I do like the Navy’s approach to career mgmt. - “choose your designator, choose your fate.” Army and Marine officers who accumulate multiple MOSs just kind of confuse me. Are you infantry or a FAO? “I’m both.” Lol. And don’t ask me about the color of their epaulettes (?).

 

[Sam I am]

"He calls me by my first name and is generally pleasant to me. I think he hates me." ?

I remember an encounter with SWO's when I was a young LTJG HAC and had scored a cool flight taking photos of a mine sweeper. The ships personnel shows up with their JO in charge of their group and he was an OCS guy a few classes ahead of me. We'll call him John Smith and he was really excited about riding in the helicopter. They all were. I mean, who isn't, right?Anyway, they brought about 7 people so there's no way we're all going to fit in the briefing space so we head to the wardroom to brief the flight with me sitting at the head of the table (where the Skipper would sit during AOM's) feeling like a big cheese. We're just about to start our brief and OPS walks in (he was my OIC on cruise a couple months before, we got along great, and everyone calls him Fish).

"Hey Sam, what's going on?"

"G'morning, Fish...we're briefing the photo ex. They brought more folks than previously discussed so were briefing in here."

"Oh, yeah...that makes sense. Have a safe flight."

"Roger that, Sir."

End of conversation with OPS.

Well...apparently that type of communication style (i.e. informal, friendly, loose, succinct, effective, brief) doesn't happen in the SWO world because LTJG Smith and his cadre of Chiefs were sitting there with their jaws on the floor.

"You called him FISH?! And you didn't have permission to use the wardroom?!"

"Yeah...we cruised together and everyone calls him Fish and no, I don't need to ask permission to brief squadron guests in the wardroom...it's kind of SOP when we have a lot of folks to brief."

"Whoa....that's...amazing."

There ya go. My SWO sea story. Pretty bland, but says a lot about SWO world. Yech.

 

[jmj689]

I remember an encounter with SWO's when I was a young LTJG HAC and had scored a cool flight taking photos of a mine sweeper. The ships personnel shows up with their JO in charge of their group and he was an OCS guy a few classes ahead of me. We'll call him John Smith and he was really excited about riding in the helicopter. They all were. I mean, who isn't, right?Anyway, they brought about 7 people so there's no way we're all going to fit in the briefing space so we head to the wardroom to brief the flight with me sitting at the head of the table (where the Skipper would sit during AOM's) feeling like a big cheese. We're just about to start our brief and OPS walks in (he was my OIC on cruise a couple months before, we got along great, and everyone calls him Fish).

"Hey Sam, what's going on?"

"G'morning, Fish...we're briefing the photo ex. They brought more folks than previously discussed so were briefing in here."

"Oh, yeah...that makes sense. Have a safe flight."

"Roger that, Sir."

End of conversation with OPS.

Well...apparently that type of communication style (i.e. informal, friendly, loose, succinct, effective, brief) doesn't happen in the SWO world because LTJG Smith and his cadre of Chiefs were sitting there with their jaws on the floor.

"You called him FISH?! And you didn't have permission to use the wardroom?!"

"Yeah...we cruised together and everyone calls him Fish and no, I don't need to ask permission to brief squadron guests in the wardroom...it's kind of SOP when we have a lot of folks to brief."

"Whoa....that's...amazing."

There ya go. My SWO sea story. Pretty bland, but says a lot about SWO world. Yech.

Lol dam swo sounds amazing ?

 

[nittany03]

There ya go. My SWO sea story. Pretty bland, but says a lot about SWO world. Yech.

Thankfully, I've found that SELRES SWOs are usually more chill, because they're usually the ones that said "Fuck the suck; I'm out." They still have a weird habit of referring to people by their billet title instead of their name, and calling the CO "sir" instead of "Skipper" even if he's the same rank as everyone else.

 

[exNavyOffRec]

Thankfully, I've found that SELRES SWOs are usually more chill, because they're usually the ones that said "Fuck the suck; I'm out." They still have a weird habit of referring to people by their billet title instead of their name, and calling the CO "sir" instead of "Skipper" even if he's the same rank as everyone else.

On recruiting duty I had CO's that were SWO's and Pilots, the SWO's you called them "sir" or "CO" the pilots were "skipper", that whole thing becomes fun right after change of command as often they alternate SWO and Aviator.