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Zeta liners and other helmet goodies

ChuckMK23

FERS and TSP contributor!
pilot
Why Are We Still Having Issues With Flight Crew Helpmets?

I am personally not a fan of NAVAIR when it comes to Aircrew equipment and ALSS. NAVAIR insists that many flight equipment requirements for Naval Aviation are unique - and for that we have paid dearly in equipment that is less than optimal - while our colleagues in AF, Army and USCG get exactly what they need. Look at the abortion that was the SV-2/LPU combination as an example. We lived with that outmoded design for decades while our sister services saw the light.

Helmets are a particular pain point for Navy and Marine Corp pilots, NFO, and aircrew. Why NAVAIR does not adopt standard AF and Army designs is a complete mystery and lack of logic in my opinion. Even the USCG - who does as much over water operations as we do - have adopted AF and Army designs.

And when we do fund and adopt a unique design,by the time it gets to the field it is bastardized beyond what the manufacturer intended.

Look at the HGU-84/P helo helmet: Here's how Gentex designed to be used and deployed:

hgu84S.jpg


Notice the lack of 3M metallic reflective tape on the outside. Gentex designed this helmet to have a 2" square of IR tape velcroed to the top of the helmet - and after extensive studies, determined the NAVAIR requirement for visually refelctive tape was an unneccessary hold over from days past. So in the early 90's when this helmet was deployed it was delivered with a special light weight OD green coating. What did our well meaning PR's do? Well cover the thing with heavy metallic based reflective tape on 100% of the outside surfaces. Ruining millions of dollars in development and superseding the design vision the engineers at GENTEX had in mind.

The Navy should adopt the HGU-55 for fixed wing guys and the HGU-56 for Helo folks - unchanged, as did the AF, Army, and Coasties - that is my argument - and give us the best, lightest weight protection, with supplies and spares that leverage the entire DOD supply system - no shortages! These helmets are "best in class" regardless if you are on land or sea. But of course this flies in the face of the NAVAIR motto - "If we didn't think of it, it can't be any good"


HGU55P.jpg


HGU56P.jpg
 

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
Chuck, you continually bash the white tape on helmets, but I still haven't heard how I'm supposed to see a head floating in the water when I'm unaided. IR tape may work great w/ goggles on, but it's useless to an unaided eye on a dark helmet in a dark sea at dusk.
 

ben

not missing sand
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
The HSC FRS is giving out the LEP visors now? What -60S equipment is putting out laser energy now that wasn't when I was there 4 months ago? That's really weird.


Only the IP's have them right now because none of the students are far enough into the new syllabus to have needed them yet. We've got a couple of block III's and the IP's have been doing work with FLIR and Hellfire, which apparently require the LEP lens. I'm a couple of months away from that part of the syllabus so I don't really have much more info than that.
 

hscs

Registered User
pilot
I can't believe HSC-3. Those visors should be kept off the helmets until using a laser . One scratch can cause them to lose their effectiveness. RAG IPs will beat those things up too much when they aren't flying the CATM events.
 

ChuckMK23

FERS and TSP contributor!
pilot
Chuck, you continually bash the white tape on helmets, but I still haven't heard how I'm supposed to see a head floating in the water when I'm unaided. IR tape may work great w/ goggles on, but it's useless to an unaided eye on a dark helmet in a dark sea at dusk.

You're right - I do I guess. An example that may help my point is this - in the late 80's/early 90's the USCG adopted the SPH-5 with the "bubble wrap" liner system and gel ear cups. The USCG wanted a visually reflective helmet for the reasons you cite - and Gentex responded with a royal blue speckled mettalic paint finish for the helmet performed wonderfully. Worked and performed better than the reflective tape. Gentex offered this finish for USN/USMC - and NAVAIR rejected it outright. USCG adopted and had the system for well over a decade before they went to the HGU-56 series.

I would just like to see us not settle for mediocre stuff!
 

ben

not missing sand
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
I can't believe HSC-3. Those visors should be kept off the helmets until using a laser . One scratch can cause them to lose their effectiveness. RAG IPs will beat those things up too much when they aren't flying the CATM events.


No one flies with them unless they're on a CATMEX. I don't think people go so far as to actually put the visor on during flight, but I don't see anyone wearing/using them on an every day basis.
 

hscs

Registered User
pilot
Ok, good -- from the sounds of your earlier post, it sounded like the visors were staying on the IP helmets no matter what.
 

skidkid

CAS Czar
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
LEP isnt really that big a deal, most of us dont fly with it regularly and as long as you treat your laser as a direct fire weapon you wont have issues.
Having used a laser for 6+ years and been on the hill FACing with lasers being used by most TMS never had an issue nor heard of anyone else having one.
Solid SA and tactically sound procedures will cover it.
 

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
You're right - I do I guess. An example that may help my point is this - in the late 80's/early 90's the USCG adopted the SPH-5 with the "bubble wrap" liner system and gel ear cups. The USCG wanted a visually reflective helmet for the reasons you cite - and Gentex responded with a royal blue speckled mettalic paint finish for the helmet performed wonderfully. Worked and performed better than the reflective tape. Gentex offered this finish for USN/USMC - and NAVAIR rejected it outright. USCG adopted and had the system for well over a decade before they went to the HGU-56 series.

I would just like to see us not settle for mediocre stuff!

Well, that's a different story altogether. I can see what you mean. But granted they did reject the CG finish, white tape seems to be the next reasonable answer. Closing the barn door after the horse escaped, I guess.

LEP isnt really that big a deal, most of us dont fly with it regularly and as long as you treat your laser as a direct fire weapon you wont have issues.
Having used a laser for 6+ years and been on the hill FACing with lasers being used by most TMS never had an issue nor heard of anyone else having one.
Solid SA and tactically sound procedures will cover it.

I'd be curious to see someone like hscs's response to this. Someone on the Navy side who may have more "laser" time than your typical Navy helo pilot (regardless of community). Skid, your description sounds well thought out and makes sense, but I wonder if that's coming from a community/service that's used their weapon system a heck of a lot more than the Navy safety nazis.
 

hscs

Registered User
pilot
I agree -- the laser is a weapon, but I don't keep LEPs on my helmet 24/7. I will only put the LEPs on when I am going to be in a laser environment. I will try and put the laser filters on the NVGs if I am going to be using the hand held PEQ or the PEQs on the guns.
 

skidkid

CAS Czar
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
I can see how you guys have taken a very conservative approach to laser safety, probably even the right answer at least on paper.
I would be more likely to wear the LEP in theater where it is more "free" than in a training environment. I just dont like the visor (I might be taking my chances but I am in good company and again noone has had an issue)
As for the PEQs etc, the NOHD isnt big enough to warrant any concern and most LEP doesnt cover that spectrum anyway (as much detail as I am going into on that).
As the the LIFs (laser intereferance filters) definitely not worth it; you lose a lot of visual accuity on the goggles HLL becomes LLL. The LIFs do not protect your eye, they protect the goggles. I see the loss of acuity as more of a threat than the possible damage to a set of goggles.
 

HeyJoe

Fly Navy! ...or USMC
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
I can see how you guys have taken a very conservative approach to laser safety, probably even the right answer at least on paper.
I would be more likely to wear the LEP in theater where it is more "free" than in a training environment. I just dont like the visor (I might be taking my chances but I am in good company and again noone has had an issue)
As for the PEQs etc, the NOHD isnt big enough to warrant any concern and most LEP doesnt cover that spectrum anyway (as much detail as I am going into on that).
As the the LIFs (laser intereferance filters) definitely not worth it; you lose a lot of visual accuity on the goggles HLL becomes LLL. The LIFs do not protect your eye, they protect the goggles. I see the loss of acuity as more of a threat than the possible damage to a set of goggles.

Just wait until this bad boy shows up in theatre...you'll need more than LEP if you get in its way....

abl_inflt-final-mrgd.jpg
 

phrogpilot73

Well-Known Member
I can see how you guys have taken a very conservative approach to laser safety, probably even the right answer at least on paper.
I would be more likely to wear the LEP in theater where it is more "free" than in a training environment. I just dont like the visor (I might be taking my chances but I am in good company and again noone has had an issue)
As for the PEQs etc, the NOHD isnt big enough to warrant any concern and most LEP doesnt cover that spectrum anyway (as much detail as I am going into on that).
As the the LIFs (laser intereferance filters) definitely not worth it; you lose a lot of visual accuity on the goggles HLL becomes LLL. The LIFs do not protect your eye, they protect the goggles. I see the loss of acuity as more of a threat than the possible damage to a set of goggles.
Not surprisingly, I agree with Skidkid on this one. I think it grows out of a greater understanding of the Lasers as a weapons system, and treating it the same way. I can honestly say that I haven't worn LEP's much, in flight or on the hill doing the FAC thing. In country, I only wore them on the opening days of the war...
 
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