Why are you Leaving?

[AllAmerican75]

I think the issue is that the SWO community has (at least for a very long time) planned to a 30% retention rate. That's what you guys have said you needed, and largely what you got. I believe the aviation community has (at least for a very long time) had much higher retention, planned to it, and is now left holding the bag. Notice I added quite a few qualifiers here because I've never worked at PERS and don't have the desire to go back and pull numbers from previous posts (sorry).

No need to pull numbers. I just know our retention has been terrible for a very long time and no one higher up seems to want to actually address the problem. I'd say y'all are starting to see a lot of what we've been dealing with for the last decade of toxic leadership, stupidly-high op tempo, and bullshit admin requirements, that suck the fun out of the job. The problem in the Surface Navy is that our leaders just adjusted numbers downward and kept moving. I had the CO of SWOS tell me that it was a good thing that so many people were getting out because they could contribute so much to the civilian world. We haven't made department head quotas for something like 6 years now and we're starting to run short of O5s who are eligible for Command.

 

[Recovering LSO]

This ought to spark some spirited debate around here. It is an all volunteer force, and she volunteered. For that she has my respect. The only thing I'll throw out there for now is the idea of expectation management. It seems to me that maybe we're not doing a very good job managing the expectations of people who are showing up at the Navy's front door. I'm intereted to see what some of you think of her reasons...

 

[haimehhh]

@Recovering LSO happen to know what her designator is?

 

[Recovering LSO]

@Recovering LSO happen to know what her designator is?

Do not, and my google-fu is weak today. I suspect someone around here knows the author. The designator would add some context, though I'm not sure it would change some opinions of her arguments.

 

[Spekkio]

Her reason number 1: I'm not sure about her background, but I think that JOs writ large have a misconception about promotion opportunity in the 'real world' and how much of that opportunity is based on objective merit. There are many careers where the only reward for doing hard work is more work, some of those careers are rather reputable and require specialized education. This idea that someone is going to instantly reward you because you did something exemplary is, in many cases, a fairy tale. In my small neck of the woods, the JOs who were given more responsibility early on were the ones that stayed. The ones who were sheltered from the responsibility they signed up to be trusted with were the ones that became disgruntled and left.

Reasons 2 and 4: I put these in the same category, and that is that it's difficult to balance personal/family life and career in the military. There may be a better way to keep people from moving all over the world every 2-3 years, but then you get into #3: people who have done it, succeeded in it, and think there's nothing wrong with it.

 

[robav8r]

This ought to spark some spirited debate around here. It is an all volunteer force, and she volunteered. For that she has my respect. The only thing I'll throw out there for now is the idea of expectation management. It seems to me that maybe we're not doing a very good job managing the expectations of people who are showing up at the Navy's front door. I'm intereted to see what some of you think of her reasons...

Just posted a separate thread on this - mods feel free to merge . . . .

 

[haimehhh]

she has a well-written blog (followed your link) but doesn't mention her designator. would be interested just for context.

my $.02 is that you'll find those exact same conditions in so many other industries. the work/life balance of a JO swo is about the same as a junior consultant or sales executive, in my experience. i worked about 80 hours a week while living with my parents straight out of college, and saw them a couple times a month. i thought i was going to love that job (and the compensation) but in the end it wasn't worth it because it didn't give me fulfillment. also, i'd have never known until i found out myself. i'm sure there are some bright, successful officers who do what they do for pennies compared to what they could make in the private-sector, but at the end of the day it comes down to the fact that they chose to become a naval officer and serve their country in that capacity.

it's not like she ditched her responsibilities or started to withdraw from her job before leaving, so all the power to her. i agree with your comments on expectation management, but i think there is a degree of 'grass is always greener' at play here. so often we compare our current state to a desired state without considering the opportunity cost of what our current state affords us (we take the benefits for granted and gripe about the negatives). she seems very even-keeled and acknowledges several pros in the piece. she definitely recognizes the growth and development she has received.

personally, i have done my research, bothered veteran AWs and sailor bobs (you guys are all awesome for being so supportive) so i could get as much information about all the aspects of officer life and working conditions. i got a lot of "putting the cart before the horse", but a lot of people shared good and bad things that i never would have known about unless they told me or i experienced them myself. obviously YMMV, and obviously i don't know her motivation or expectations for joining so i could be way off base. but bottom line for me is that even after all i know, and after reading articles like hers, i want to become an officer (whether it is SNA/SWO/IW, or whatever i'm relegated to) because i want to use my skills to support the navy's mission. maybe after 4 or 8 years i'll hate it and get out. but i won't get out without feeling that i've contributed, grown, and gained as much as i've put in.

would love to hear from others, though, especially those with the actual experience.

r/,
James

 

[CommodoreMid]

She's obviously not an aviator since she thinks everyone with a pulse can make O-4.

 

[Flash]

I think it is odd that she uses the example of Representative Gabbard as someone who should be promoted faster, last time I checked being elected to office did not make you a more competent leader or a better person.

 

[haimehhh]

last time I checked being elected to office did not make you a more competent leader or a better person.

haha, could just as easily be an argument to the contrary. that part of the article bugged me

 

[Brett327]

This ought to spark some spirited debate around here. It is an all volunteer force, and she volunteered. For that she has my respect. The only thing I'll throw out there for now is the idea of expectation management. It seems to me that maybe we're not doing a very good job managing the expectations of people who are showing up at the Navy's front door. I'm intereted to see what some of you think of her reasons...

As I posted earlier on FB (and as you've alluded to), it sounds like she didn't know what she was getting herself into. We may not be doing a good job of articulating what lives of service and sacrifice means to our 20-something accessions. Spoiler Alert: It ain't all choker whites and dining outs.

 

[Spekkio]

What expectations do you think need to be managed in this case? She raised her hand and apparently did multiple deployments as a Naval Officer. She raised some legitimate issues reflected in formal surveys and thus far the 'interesting discussion' in this thread boils down to chest-thumping about designators and expectation management. Refer to her resignation point #3.

We don't require prospective JOs to commit to an entire career in the military, and for many officers, particularly women, the prospect of moving around and inability to balance service with family life is a deal breaker for continued service. If the military wants to retain more women into senior ranks, it's going to have to do a better job of managing that besides 'suck it up buttercup.'

 

[FSF17]

"As long as you don’t get fired, don’t fail a physical fitness test, don’t get a DUI, nor get caught fraternizing, you can probably get promoted to at least lieutenant commander."

 

[Recovering LSO]

What expectations do you think need to be managed in this case? She raised her hand and apparently did multiple deployments as a Naval Officer. She raised some legitimate issues reflected in formal surveys and thus far the 'interesting discussion' in this thread boils down to chest-thumping about designators and expectation management. Refer to her resignation point #3.

We don't require prospective JOs to commit to an entire career in the military, and for many officers, particularly women, the prospect of moving around and inability to balance service with family life is a deal breaker for continued service. If the military wants to retain more women into senior ranks, it's going to have to do a better job of managing that besides 'suck it up buttercup.'

More coming on this topic later, but let's start with the apparent surprise of being deployed.... Also, her broad brush characterization of "privileged white middle age men" is shitty. How would it be received if I made a similar disparaging remark about "millennial" (@nittany, where are you?), or young women? More, much more to come on this one.

 

[haimehhh]

Copy that. I really would like to get this back on topic and found the article and ensuing conversation pretty interesting. I'd still love to hear others' opinions.

FWIW, I don't have a Twitter but I respect the request and am glad to oblige.