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What IS the Penalty Box and should I fear it?

webmaster

The Grass is Greener!
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
MAKE VAPES said:
I've been here for a while, and have seen many frequenters get wings on their avatars... I've gotta ask....

Honestly, is the foundation of the distain for the QUESTION an issue of acute egalitarian pissypants-itis (people getting their nickers in a bunch at a percieved insult to their worthless or worthwhile contributions to Naval Aviation from a young buck who doesn't know any better)?

Or is it simply the IDEA that the QUESTION can't be answered definitivelly, previous results don't dictate future performance, and the question gets asked repeatedly?

There is after all, a statistical answer to the question.
I think the SOP and website background information answers it pretty well, and here are the excerpts that either touch on it, or directly answer the reason for the "What are my chances" reaction:

http://www.airwarriors.com/forum/showthread.php/153169-Air-Warrior’s-Standard-Operating-Procedures-(SOP)

RULES FOR SUCCESS: (THREAD) (REFs: Message to Garcia and Taking care of monkeys)

The wings by users' names are not some made-up website award. They indicate that this individual has earned the right to wear the real thing. Keep this in mind when interacting with them.
  1. This is not Facebook or MySpace. You will, in some cases, be interacting with people who will be far senior to you if you have the privilege of serving in uniform. We strive to keep this a laid-back environment, but blatant disrespect to senior officers or enlisted will not fly. This is a public site, and what you post here can be seen by all who visit and can have real-world consequences regarding your application or future reputation. ADMIRALS HAVE BEEN KNOWN TO LURK AND POST HERE. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!
  2. As an aspiring officer, you are going to be expected to display personal initiative. Your mother should not be running down your paperwork, and we are not going to waste our time answering simple questions which have been answered many times in one of the many threads created in the 9 years this site has been online. USE THE SEARCH FUNCTION. If you still have questions, then chime in and we would be happy to help.
  3. As an aspiring officer, you are expected to have a decent command of the English language. u r not txting ur buddy; if you haven't learned halfway decent grammar and syntax in 12 years of school, and whatever college experience you have, God help you.
Quite a bit of information keeps getting asked, over and over again. And the new user/poster may feel intimidated with the defacto response "use the search function". To forestall the flames that sometimes occur when it's the same question that has been asked weekly since the dinosaurs roamed, the various "Stupid Question/Mega-threads" were introduced to allow newbies or as it has turned out, anyone including Mods to ask burning questions that Mods feel should be captured in these "learning/reference" threads. The intent is to also provide protection from flames as the "Stupid question" threads are sanctuary from same by definition (ie there are no such things as a stupid question). Their popularity has spawned other Mega-threads.

BACKGROUND: We have found over the years that new posters to Naval Aviation are very curious and tend to create threads faster than a M16 in full auto and the temptation to ask the verboten "What are my chances?". That said, the practice of push back on certain questions is generally no different than what you'll experience in any Ready Room. In that fashion, AW serves a "Virtual Ready Room" or rock tumbler to smooth some of the rough edges on a newbie's quest to a cockpit.
COMMON QUESTIONS: The following are a few examples of questions that are no longer funny, and will generally result in you getting made fun of:

 

Alpha_Echo_606

Does not play well with others!™
Contributor
I've been here for a while, and have seen many frequenters get wings on their avatars... I've gotta ask....

Honestly, is the foundation of the distain for the QUESTION an issue of acute egalitarian pissypants-itis (people getting their nickers in a bunch at a percieved insult to their worthless or worthwhile contributions to Naval Aviation from a young buck who doesn't know any better)?

Or is it simply the IDEA that the QUESTION can't be answered definitivelly, previous results don't dictate future performance, and the question gets asked repeatedly?

There is after all, a statistical answer to the question.
The statistical answer is every pilot gets wings when deserved, the question you are referring to is what most everyone wants. The real answer is what does the Navy/ Marine Corps need right now! Those who want jets and get it are ecstatic, those that want and don't get are disappointed. To avoid the disappointment and rubbing it in those that wanted jets faces, it is better to not even ask the question and that way it doesn't matter.

Just my .02 cents worth.
 

statesman

Shut up woman... get on my horse.
pilot
Super Moderator
I think it's a fair question, and I wonder if it would be so taboo if just as many people asked 'What % get P-3s', or 'what % get helos?'

In the end its very similar to the whole NSS question... To know or not to know. Will you do any better if you know that you're right on the cusp? Will you not try as hard if you know you have a 65? Either way if knowing your NSS changes how much you put into API or Primary you probably have some things to think about.

That said it might be a good idea to dig up some information from BUPERS to get some rough numbers, break the communities down by percentage, and then put it in a sticky post as a way of saying: "This is the best answer we can give you on the question, so take it and don't press the issue anymore."
 

IRfly

Registered User
None
When you make it to your first squadron, make sure that you say it just like that: "I showed up to Airwarriors.com and got stickied right away!"
 

gstapes12

BDCP FS Pilot
threadjack//

.02 cents?

.02 dollars = 2 cents... unless you really thought your comment was worth .02 cents

endjack//

now for my thoughts.

As someone who grew up with a father who was a naval aviator and flew with the indians (H-3's) off of the big E, I was always well informed about the selection process. When I got here I wasn't going to ask that question because I already knew the answer. I think that the reason the "% jets" question comes up is almost solely due to TOPGUN. I'm not kidding. The overwhelming majority of kids my age (21) have seen/learned about Naval Aviation through that movie. My friends ask me all the time, "dude are you gonna fly a jet?" and they aren't educated enough about Naval Aviation to know any better. Unfortunately nobody asks about the helo guys, which is a shame... (maybe a TOPSAR movie in the future to promote helos?).

Then you get the kid who is interested in the navy, enough to talk to a recruiter. Said recruiter (most likely not an aviator) doesn't know what % get jets just like you all really don't know what his chances are. The kid stumbles here and figures what better place to ask the question than to a forum full of aviators. Just some things I've noticed while lurking through this site for the past two years.

However, the newbies naivete doesn't justify the stupidity of some of these posters or their blatant rudeness to a bunch of commissioned naval officers. I think this is what makes you guys mad. Or it might be what MAKEVAPES suggested, I'm not on the other side of the line yet I can't really weight in. Anyway, the banhammer usually comes down due to the fact that most of you are seasoned vets that don't put up with b.s.
 

statesman

Shut up woman... get on my horse.
pilot
Super Moderator
TOP GUN might be part of it, but it's not hard to make an F-18 appealing.

I think Hollywood might be responsible for some misconceptions people have about Naval Aviation. However the Blue Angels, and other demo teams have just as much to do with jets being the first thing people think of when they think Naval Aviation.

Apart from that, the idea of flying a jet is what gets a huge percentage of people into this business. In my API class 1 person said they wanted to fly helos. Everyone else wanted to be a jet pilot. Most them are helo pilots, whether by choice or otherwise. Of those 26 or so people only 1 of those people remained unhappy about their position after a few months in advanced or after getting winged.

Its hard to make a Seahawk look sexy to an 18 - 24 year old when you compare it to an F-18... even harder for a P-3... but from the inside it's a little easier to see that flying the fastest / hottest thing with wings has some serious trade offs.
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
I think it's a fair question, and I wonder if it would be so taboo if just as many people asked 'What % get P-3s', or 'what % get helos?'......That said it might be a good idea to dig up some information from BUPERS to get some rough numbers, break the communities down by percentage, and then put it in a sticky post as a way of saying: "This is the best answer we can give you on the question, so take it and don't press the issue anymore."
You hit the nail on the head. I think it would be great if we could get the numbers for each community but have no idea if it is even possible, I have only seen them once and it was about 10 years ago in a Navy Times article. I am curious myself what the numbers are nowadays. That source of info already exists for the USMC with their excellent FY XX USMC Aviation Plan that breaks down the current aircraft numbers and even their crystal ball as to what they see happening in the future, giving everyone a very good idea of just what percent get _____.
 

Flying Toaster

Well-Known Member
None
That said it might be a good idea to dig up some information from BUPERS to get some rough numbers, break the communities down by percentage, and then put it in a sticky post as a way of saying: "This is the best answer we can give you on the question, so take it and don't press the issue anymore."
Or do something like the Baseops drop thread. It's pretty informative and makes the whole "what % jets/fighters" question irrelevant, since anyone who wants to know the exact numbers can see for themselves. Although that doesn't stop if from occasionally descending into a pissing match (like right now about Whiting to T-38's) which the mods let run the course, then clean up.

http://www.flyingsquadron.com/forums/index.php?/topic/4486-track-selects-and-assignment-nights/
 

fattestfoot

In it for the naked volleyball
The problem with knowing what % get jets is that it'll be a FY thing. Unfortunately, I don't think very many of us get to decide when exactly we're going to go through and then finish primary. From there, you have to know exactly what platforms the Navy needs during that particular FY at that exact moment. Since that's going to change pretty much every single year, it makes sense that asking what % get jets is a ridiculous question. Even if 80% of SNA's get jets during your FY, what's to say you get there at the time when they're filling the other 20%?

It might be interesting to see how many get selected for each platform every FY, but it's all still a crapshoot.
 

statesman

Shut up woman... get on my horse.
pilot
Super Moderator
Which is one of the reasons why the % question is a hard question to answer. However we might be able to find out what % of Naval Aviators are Jet / Helo / MPRA pilots. So while its not a definitive answer it's at least some information...

Again it is a legitimate question for someone who wants to be a Naval Aviator.
 
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