what is the deal with SWO

[Gryphon]

hey guys,

question for you all. what is the deal with SWO? everyone is so negative about it and has been dissing it a lot. can someone tell me how it is so bad. what is the typical life a SWO leads after OCS? 1 month after, 3 years after, 6 years, so forth.

reason i am asking is because i just got pro'recd with the SWO community(SWO is my 2nd choice with Supply being my 1st) and wanted to know more. thanks guys.

 

[virtu050]

you can still serve on ship as a Supply Officer.. only difference.. you get 8 hours of sleep! I think SWO lifestyle sucks because they have so much responsibility and only so much time. I think the average amount of sleep a SWO officer gets is about 4 hours a day. But here are some advantages I see to being a SWO:

1. more leadership responsibility (you're a Division Officer as an Ensign)
2. shorter school- you start out directly on a ship then 6 months at Newport, RI.
3. Port Calls - destroyers/cruisers have more port calls than carriers...
4. Not limited in Shore Duty

a few disadvantages:

1. less sleep
2. no flight pay
3. 15KTS vice 350KTS
4. you're stuck on a ship for months(also applies to carrier pilots)

 

[Flash]

Not one guy I knew was happy with being a SWO. They may have been happy with some of the benefits, the leadership and port calls, but not with the job.

Only about 2% of the guys I knew who were aviators did not like it (believe it or not, there are a few out there).

I think that about sums it up for me.

 

[Falcaner]

Actually there are a few of us who are not quite that grumpy, and then there are a few of us who are down right miserable. As stated about there are a few advantages to being a SWO most notably is responsibility early. Also I think you get contact with your younger sailors earlier. I like that a lot personally, but I am also in deck so I have a few problem children to deal with. Thankfully the BMC we have are good at dealing with them. Virtu050 hit the nail on the head you have so little time to accomplish all that you need to and you end up with less sleep as a consequence. When you first show up to the ship you will be given a big stack of CDs and told learn this. And you will have run your division as well. So to put it simply once you arrive you will have to get your SWO pin (no small task) and run your division (also no small task). A tip for you when you show up to the ship; have you chief run the division for the most part (you will have to keep tabs on him of course) and you go get your pin. Because no pin = pink slip, no ants if or buts about it. We have already had a few JO's threatened because they didn't there pin on the last cruise. Bottom line if you want to do well work your butt off, get your pin and impress your department head and the XO/CO when you’re on the bridge. I know easier said then done. Finally like anything else SWO is what you make of it, and also it helps to associate with the right people.

 

[sirenia]

Hi,

I noticed that Gryphon was pro rec'd for SWO even though it wasn't his first choice. I was told that SWO was closed in mid-August. I am applying for Intel, but SWO is one of my three choices. I just wanted to know whether SWO has opened up again and if so, for what FY.

Thanks,

Sirenia

 

[FlyingPorkChop]

Here is my perspective on SWOs, for what it's worth:

1) Don't forget to mention the SWO Bonus, which is a LARGE cash incentive at, I believe, the O3 level, to remain in the program. This has both good and bad implications. The bad is, of course, that the program has such difficulty retaining those who have fulfilled their committment that it has to give a HUGE cash reward for them to stay. The good is the cash itself.

2) As a guy who came to the Navy relatively late in the game, I have considerable civilian experience in hiring. When I see that (or saw that I should say) an applicant was a SWO, I assumed two things. One, that the applicant had, most likely, strong leadership skills. And two, that the applicant had developed few other skills useful in that civilian job. From experience, our best Navy hires were all SC, INTEL, Cryppies, Aviators and Nukes, in a rough approximation of preponderance.

3) If you are going SWO, you should do so with the intention of winning command at sea. This is a decreasingly likely outcome in a shrinking Navy. The Nav just announced a bunch of different career paths for SWOs to achieve command -- for instance, running security teams -- but these are very clearly second best destinations.

4) I have never seen SWOs being looked down or teased because of their designator (in other than a jocular manner). The Navy is and always has been about the sea. These guys drive our ships. What else is there to say about that?

R, VR FPC

 

[WannaBEaP3gal]

I was told that is wasn't even 4 hours of consecutive sleep most of the time... but it's about 4 hrs of sleep within a 24 hr period, sleep a little here, and a little there... that's gotta suck when you are on a 6 month deployment, it's like it never ends. But then again some people really like it. I know an o-6 helo pilot who served about 3 yrs as the navigation officer on the JFK and he said it was probably the highlight of his career. But then I also know some officers from my enlisted midn cruise that basically hated life... different strokes for different folks!

 

[Steve Wilkins]

Here is my perspective on SWOs, for what it's worth:

1) Don't forget to mention the SWO Bonus, which is a LARGE cash incentive at, I believe, the O3 level, to remain in the program. This has both good and bad implications. The bad is, of course, that the program has such difficulty retaining those who have fulfilled their committment that it has to give a HUGE cash reward for them to stay. The good is the cash itself.

The "SWO Bonus," or also called Surface Warfare Officer Continuation Pay (SWOCP) is a cash incentive to stay through our department head tours. We have two DH tours, each lasting approx 18 months. This does not include Department Head School which lasts 6 months or any follow on training (i.e. AEGIS pipeline). Let us not "forget" that aviators also have such a program to keep personnel through their DH tours and beyond. This is called Aviation Career Continuation Pay (ACCP). These incentive pays for both communities were established in FY00 and each has had positive results in their corresponding communities. Aviators also get Aviation Career Incentive Pay.

2) As a guy who came to the Navy relatively late in the game, I have considerable civilian experience in hiring. When I see that (or saw that I should say) an applicant was a SWO, I assumed two things. One, that the applicant had, most likely, strong leadership skills. And two, that the applicant had developed few other skills useful in that civilian job. From experience, our best Navy hires were all SC, INTEL, Cryppies, Aviators and Nukes, in a rough approximation of preponderance.

I would agree with you on your first statement regarding your assumptions when hiring prior SWO's. I don't follow you on your second. Exactly what other useful skills are there that the new hires from the SC, Intel, Crypto, Aviators, and Nukes all have, that for whatever reason never seemed to be picked up by the SWO's? Was this simply and assumption on your part, or something observable?

3) If you are going SWO, you should do so with the intention of winning command at sea. This is a decreasingly likely outcome in a shrinking Navy. The Nav just announced a bunch of different career paths for SWOs to achieve command -- for instance, running security teams -- but these are very clearly second best destinations.

To be perfectly blunt, this last one pissed me off pretty good. Command at sea is not won. It is not a prize handed out after playing a game of checkers. Maybe I'm just *****ing about semantics, but in the Navy, and on a forum where advice is being given out, words are important. Here is the gist of the alternative career paths. The purpose of these alternatives is not to have better opportunity for command, and certainly not command at sea. More opportunities for command (not at sea) happen to be a benefit, not the goal or purpose. The alternative career paths are:

1) Antiterrorism/Force Protection
2) Anti-submarine warfare
3) Missile Defense
4) Mine Warfare
5) Shore installation management
6) Strategic Sealift

Switching to one of these career paths is not automatic. An application must be submitted and a board held. Applications may be submitted anytime after your first DH tour (note: you still have to complete 2 DH tours). If selected for one of these programs (you choose which ones you want consideration for....ie. if you don't put down Missile Defense, the board won't condider you for that pipeline) you will no longer be in the mix for XO Afloat or Command at Sea (hence the alternative career path). For many, many SWO's (close to 50%), command at sea is not a goal for them. So this program provides for them further leadership opportunities in a specific field of interest along with promotion potential and command opportunites. But first and foremost, it provides the navy with experts in these fields....fields that are tradionally filled by some random SWO with little to no training.

I'm not sure where you derive your "very clearly second best destinations" bias, but I can bet it's not based on your experience of the program.

For anyone interested in more details, you can read the NAVADMIN http://www.persnet.navy.mil/navadmin/nav04/nav04220.txt

4) I have never seen SWOs being looked down or teased because of their designator (in other than a jocular manner). The Navy is and always has been about the sea. These guys drive our ships. What else is there to say about that?

Are you kidding me? I've seen it go both ways.

 

[cierno31]

SWO chances

If you go SWO, what are the chances that you can pick the ship? I'm asking this because I'm interested in an auxiliary ship or a rescue and salvage ship. Both of these ships have relatively few officers on there crews (24 for auxiliary and 6 for rescue and salvage). Are these considered popular ships to be stationed on, because they interest me a great deal. Does the small officer crew size mean that it is more difficult to get stationed on one of these ships? Any information would help. Thank you.

 

[Thisguy]

If you go SWO, what are the chances that you can pick the ship? I'm asking this because I'm interested in an auxiliary ship or a rescue and salvage ship. Both of these ships have relatively few officers on there crews (24 for auxiliary and 6 for rescue and salvage). Are these considered popular ships to be stationed on, because they interest me a great deal. Does the small officer crew size mean that it is more difficult to get stationed on one of these ships? Any information would help. Thank you.

Guys in my OCS class got to choose their ship, but keep in mind, it's all about what's available. It's tougher to go to a ship with less officers, because you'll probably be relieving one of them, so if no one's leaving in a window around you're commissioning, that billet won't be available.

Also, at OCS, it's all about timing, not so much class rank like at USNA or ROTC. What do I mean by this? Well, our guys didn't get to pick their ships until the class ahead of us picked theirs (from the same group of orders). So in other words, our class got the leftovers. So try your damnest, but there are things that are just out of your control.

 

[TurnandBurn55]

My $.02 (take it for what it's worth)

Talking to both my buddies from college who are now SWOs, as well as helo instructors who've spent a lot of time on destroyers and frigates, the problem seems to center around a training issue.

Stickmonkeys and NFOs go through flight school. SEALs go through BUD/S. Bubbleheads go through nuke school. What do SWOs get? OJT. They're sent straight from commissioning to the boat.

So they're pretty much at the mercy of their command. Hey, if you've got a good department head who's looking out for your development, and a good chief who wants to help you out-- you'll go far, and it's "what you make of it". If your chief doesn't want to work with another clueless butterbar, and your department head is bitter and hates life... you're f#cked. Because you have no training to fall back on and not a lot of recourse for aid...

 

[Thisguy]

My $.02 (take it for what it's worth)


So they're pretty much at the mercy of their command. Hey, if you've got a good department head who's looking out for your development, and a good chief who wants to help you out-- you'll go far, and it's "what you make of it". If your chief doesn't want to work with another clueless butterbar, and your department head is bitter and hates life... you're f#cked. Because you have no training to fall back on and not a lot of recourse for aid...

That's a very good point, and it isn't just a problem with SWO, but some of the smaller restricted line communities as well. Speaking from personal experience, AMDO has a 10-week school, which is by and large a joke. It's not really training. When I checked in on cruise, the person I was relieving didn't even get underway, rather, the command "hooked him up" and let him go TAD to the wing for 2 months. Well, my passdown was with a CWO who said, and I quote, "First thing, you're going to be bored..." Basically, he was doing both the MMCO and MCO job, and had a lot more MMCO stuff on his mind that he could give a sh!t about giving a good MCO passdown. Example? I found out not from him, but from the Monthly Maintenance plan that I was the Program manager for several programs. Nice. At least with SWO, you get to turnover with someone.

 

[Steve Wilkins]

At least with SWO, you get to turnover with someone.

Negative ghostrider! That doesn't necessarily happen as much as you may think. I've taken over two divisions without getting jack from the outgoing divo. When I took over Auxiliairies division on the carrier, the guy I relieved was kind enough to leave a pile of paperwork about 8-10 inches tall (no exageration) in his inbox. My turnover consisted of a powerpoint presentation that explained what each workcenter in my division was responsible for. My relief was so excited to lateral transfer to the Supply community, that he forgot to take care of his own.

 

[Thisguy]

My turnover consisted of a powerpoint presentation that explained what each workcenter in my division was responsible for.

Fair enough, but that's still a better turnover than I got.

 

[nfo2b]

I can't speak for conventional (non-Nuke) SWO's, but most of the JO's I worked with on the Vinson and the Stennis (I'm prior Nuke) weren't all that bitter. Yeah, some hated life, but these were the ones who could find something to gripe about in ANY situation. And they definitely got more than 4hrs of sleep per night. And the watch rotation wasn't that bad for them, most of the time. I haven't been on a carrier in over 4 years, but I know for a fact that the SWO-Nuke community has gotten even better: bonuses are higher, as SWO-Nukes now double dip (they get SWO AND Nuke DH bonuses, which are quite fat right now), and the annual retention pay that they get (yes, even as JO's they get this--it's actually called Nuke Proficiency Pay, but whatever) is really nice, too--higher than flight pay. And after much thought and introspection, I've come to the conclusion that that is a field that I would be quite content going back to, if I had to. I'm still staying FO, and praying that the NAMI devilkin keep me out of their sights, but if my eyes brought their curse upon me, then I wouldn't hesitate to go that route. And this has little to do with the money. As a Naval Officer, it should NEVER be about the money.
So the moral of this story? If you're thinking about going SWO, and you're reasonably smart, then SWO-Nuke is the only way to go. Especially if you don't plan on making a career out of it. The civilian job market in many different industries absolutely ADORE nuke officers. They can't get enough of 'em.