Webb Quote

[BRM21o]

"That was the Plebe system. It was harsh and cruel. It was designed to produce a man who would be able to be an effective leader in combat, to endure prisoner-of-war camps, to fight this country's wars with skill and tenacity. And it is all but gone. I don't see anything at the Naval Academy anymore that can take a person deep insdie himself. I see refinement. I see an overemphasis on academics at the expense of leadership. Harvard and Georgetown and a plethora of other institutions can turn out technicians and intellectuals en masse; only the service academies have been able to turn out combat leaders en masse, and they have stopped doing so."


I agree...any thoughts?

 

[ELCID05]

I believe there are ways to cheat youself out of the experience that you speak of. If you are constantly trying to make the training easier on yourself rather than using the hardships that are presented as learning experiences, then you will not go inside yourself to find out what you are made of because you dont have to. If you are driven to become a good leader and don't try to find the easy way out of the situations you face at the academies, then I believe you can become just as strong a leader as those that have been commissioned from these schools in the past. In my experience graduates always think that the academies were tougher when they attended. I am not an academy grad, I attended The Citadel but we encounter the same argument and mindset from the class the preceeded us.

 

[wink]

In large part I agree. I consider myself old Navy, thougher then the product coming out of RTCs and commissioning sources today. But the E-8s and O-4s I met as a new ensign in 1979 thought I had it too easy.

Should the USNA be more physically and psychologically challenging? I think so. Does it have to be as brutal as it was on occasion in the mid 20th century and before, no. I also do not think that academics has to suffer just because you put more emphasis on mental and physical stress. Dealing with high academic standards can be part and parcel of the mental stress and coping mechanism a mid needs to learn.

 

[highlyrandom]

Some of the best-known prisoners of war who held up for years against torture and despair never had the "plebe system," so why insist that it was the beatings with broom handles and pullups off of windowsills that did it? I don't recall any of the Rough Riders voluntarily going to a school because it was "harsh and cruel," but those guys were damned effective.

"Plebe" training should be hard in the ways that elite parts of Army or Marine training is hard, if they want to weed people out. But it should be professional, distant interaction...drill sergeants yelling at your face, hundreds more pushups and pullups, and running out in the cold and rain. Closer to dive school or Ranger school. Not some frat-house initiation rite or a pimply military high school refugee beating you with a sword because he thinks highly of himself and "look at all those guys dying over there so you can wake up at 5:30 and disgrace my p-way."

The closest I ever saw to Webb's training wet dream was a former Marine midshipman, pissed at being given ceremonial duty instead of getting sent to war, kick a fat kid in the balls with a steel-toed boot while he was tied up with zipties lying on the ground. Military training should be "as hard as possible" as per Heinlein et al., but hard is that last set of pullups or that crawl through the icy mud, not retarded Abu Ghraib shti. In reality, we're not going to get the benefit of humiliating torture, like my buddy being forced to piss himself in front of the female midshipmen while standing on a wall, just seven years ago. Reality is they shoot us in the head or start cutting, and who wants to waste time preparing for that...you either have it or you don't.

Practice torture? Try rowing.


Edit: That's not a dig on James Webb's military expertise, or Navy Cross-winning combat effectiveness and dedication. Merely on the system that would arise if his ideas, which are nominally sound ones, were put to work by lesser leaders. For a prime example, visit the Naval Academy.

 

[Old NFO]

I always find Webb's quotes to be entertaining, especially concerning the Naval Academy, since his attitude toward classmates is rather interesting... I work with one of his classmates, and I asked one time why Webb never showed up at any functions; his answer, because Oliver North (another classmate) might and Webb hates him and refuses to be seen in public with him. Talk about petty BS!!!!

 

[The Chief]

I always find Webb's quotes to be entertaining, especially concerning the Naval Academy, since his attitude toward classmates is rather interesting... I work with one of his classmates, and I asked one time why Webb never showed up at any functions; his answer, because Oliver North (another classmate) might and Webb hates him and refuses to be seen in public with him. Talk about petty BS!!!!

I highly recommend "The Nightingale's Song" by Robert Timberg. Provides background of several current day "leaders", e.g., John McCain, Oliver North, James Webb, Chuck Larsen, John Poindexter, Bud MacFarlan ....

 

[DanMa1156]

I think what has to be asked "what is the purpose of x, y, z?" If it has an honest purpose and fits into today's Navy, then why not?

If it's for toture or a "rite of passage" sort of deal then it doesn't belong there.

Any sort of training should fall in line with the mission of the Naval Academy, right? "To develop midshipmen morally, mentally, and physically... If it doesn't fit, it doesn't belong. Keep in mind, Webb approved the current mission of the Academy when he was SECNAV under Reagan.


I highly respect Webb (isn't he running for Senate in Virginia on the Dem's ticket?) as a combat leader, a USNA grad, a marine and you-name-it, but after reading his A Sense of Honor, I really have to question what he wants done to the plebe system. Assuming he writes his feelings, he practically justifies some pretty barbaric stuff: ie: making a plebe sleep indefinitely nude on his bed springs.

As it was said before, people need to also consider the fact that courses also add to stress. Why can't you produce smart officers as well as well trained ones? I don't think academics should be discounted or lessnened, the Navy will always be in need of academically capable, combat effective leaders.



Edit: How long ago did Webb say this?

 

[BRM21o]

The quote came from The Nightingale's Song as mentioned above.

 

[ip568]

The hard, cold truth is that when the services began accepting women in combat roles in order to appease different whiny groups, the toughest parts of training and readiness were discarded. Two standards for strength and PRT ("It's not 'fair' to make women do that many pushups or run that fast!"). Watered-down SERE. No "bad words." A kinder, more gentle military. I still offer the VP Challenge. So far, the Navy has not accepted. I was no PT star, believe me, but I grunted through the same physical stuff the Navy had been using since Korea. That's all gone. So now an applicant has to get a 300 on his/her PRT to be competitive. Can anyone tell me if men and women are judged to the same standard? I doubt it.

OK; flame away.

 

[TXHusker05]

Well I can tell you if they started making a plebe's life anymore hell than it already is, applications to the academies will slow to a trickle. Who would want to deal with that when 4 years in a NROTC program puts you in the same place? Those so called technicians are the ones keeping the Navy afloat, I wouldn't recommend alienating them.

I'll agree that leadership NEEDS to be the key focus of the Academy (and any other commissioning program), because that is what they are training to do... lead. I don't think we have done too bad with the officers coming out of the Academy, don't fix it if it ain't broke.

And just to go farther with ip's post, I don't think it is the women into combat roles that have messed up the training... it is the all around politically correct world we now live it. In the case of women, they want to have all the same opportunities as men but when men try and joke around with women about anything like guys do... women are the first to claim harassment. The tough training has been discarded for quicker, more compact training to get people into the fight quicker (possibly because of retention).

 

[BRM21o]

Personally, I think Plebe Summer should be a 6-week Bulldog/USMC type training led by a combination of Navy and Marine Corps drill instructors. For the upperclass leadership requirement, I would change it so they would be a CO of a sail boat cruise, YP, or a platoon commander during a leatherneck type program. During 3/C summer, you would do PROTRAMID for 3 weeks to learn about the different jobs, and then the next 3 week block you would be the one resposible for the job of Nav/Con/basic infantryman working for the upperclass. I would change service selection to the end of 2/C year that way during their 1/C summer, the firsties would have their leadership requirement similar to their selection. (Navy Air-sailing, SWO/Sub-YP, Marine-Platoon Commander). From what I've seen here, if they changed it to something mentioned above, with a better intial foundation of military indoctrination, this place would be a lot more efficient.

 

[The Chief]

The hard, cold truth ... flame away.

The hard, cold truth.

 

[The Chief]

Well I can tell you if they started making a plebe's life anymore hell than it already is, applications to the academies will slow to a trickle.

Well now, I do not know about that. I personally know one mid that was going to DOR because it was too easy, sissy like, I think was the term. But guess when you were reared by a Master Chief .... !!


All that being said, it is the system we have, there is no going back, we will live or die with what we have created, IMHO.

 

[lowflier03]

The same thing happened/is happening at places like the Citadel and VMI also. Sadly it is the Cadets and the Alumni who are pushing to keep some of the old ways and the Administration is pushing for a kinder, gentler, more politically correct school. I know of several people who quit because they thought it had gotten too soft.

 

[TXHusker05]

I say we end the politically correct crap, that will solve all of the problems. Better funding, better training, less BS. And maybe make it a requirement for all civilian military leadership to have prior military experience, I know some of you poli sci guys will scream checks and balances and that crap... but how can some civilian make military and tactical decisions with no experience. I think that is how the problem started.