VSTOL JSF vs. Conventional JSF

[Saladmander]

Neither can the Harrier.



Both have IFR probes and plumbed pylons. Your point? You're that guy who argues with the pilots at airshows about their own aircraft, aren't you? Put down the copy of Janes.

**** off, I wasn't arguing with anyone. I'm here to learn, so I said what I knew. If it isn't right then all I wanted was to know what is right.

So do FARPs have short runways? I was under the impression they were mostly for helicopters, and wouldn't need anything like that.

 

[mmx1]

snip

You go to war with the planes you have, not the planes you'd like to have. The idea is that you may not have 2 CVN's hanging around in an all-out shooting war, e.g. with China. In a pinch, an LHA can be used as an escort carrier with STOL aircraft, which I think they recently demonstrated with the Bonhomme Richard in the Persian Gulf.

It's sort of taking a lesson from the Brits with the cargo vessels they converted into Harrier carriers during the Falklands war, augmenting what was their one CV at the time. With CTOL you limit yourself to our 11 big-deck carriers and a select few airfields. STOL gives you an additional 7-8 "escort carriers" and a lot more improvised fields.

 

[brd2881]

You go to war with the planes you have, not the planes you'd like to have

Hello Donald Rumsfeld...jk

 

[WEGL]

A bunch of sh!t that insinuates there's only one bird on the Boat.

Well, with a little force management and coordination, as soon as one bird pulled off winchester another rolls in loaded for bear... doesn't seem like it should be a difficult evolution to grasp, even for a jarhead.

Uh Cobras can only carry rockets, hellfires, TOWs, and 20mm cannon.

Man is that all they carry? I guess they're totally useless and not absolutely perfect for a CAS mission. My bad. Which begs the question, if you were in the boots on the ground, you'd prefer to have larger munitions used in close?

It's sort of taking a lesson from the Brits with the cargo vessels they converted into Harrier carriers during the Falklands war, augmenting what was their one CV at the time. With CTOL you limit yourself to our 11 big-deck carriers and a select few airfields. STOL gives you an additional 7-8 "escort carriers" and a lot more improvised fields.

Now that makes sense mmx1. Granted WWIII breaks out VSTOL aircraft will certainly be useful. But, in the GWOT, not so much, methinks.

_______________________________________________
Disregard All. I'm buzzed.

 

[lowflier03]

Simple solution, make a modernized A-10 for the Marine Corps. Nothing beats one of those for CAS. Plus with the maneuverability it already has, Im sure you could do a few mods to help it with short field work.

 

[esday1]

I'm not an aviator, but this is still too easy...

Well, with a little force management and coordination, as soon as one bird pulled off winchester another rolls in loaded for bear... doesn't seem like it should be a difficult evolution to grasp, even for a jarhead.

With the limited number of aircraft available and the distance from the boat to the bad guys, this would probably be a hell of a lot harder than you make it sound, particularly when you have a CAS situation where the birds need to be available quickly to respond to a call for air support. Operating from a FARP makes this much more practical.

Man is that all they carry? I guess they're totally useless and not absolutely perfect for a CAS mission. My bad. Which begs the question, if you were in the boots on the ground, you'd prefer to have larger munitions used in close?

You'd probably prefer to have as wide a variety of munitions available as possible. Some days I order Chinese, sometimes pizza. Sometimes a Hellfire will do the job, other times you need a JDAM. Maybe instead of arguing with people who have their wings, you could do a little bit more reading about CAS, and maybe try to talk to some people who actually know something about it? Maybe at your next local airshow, or talk to one of the people on this forum who have done FAC tours. If you're going to be spouting out about something that's outside of your personal experience or career field, you can at least do your homework beforehand.

Now that makes sense mmx1. Granted WWIII breaks out VSTOL aircraft will certainly be useful. But, in the GWOT, not so much, methinks.

I'll let someone who has actual experience with CAS in the GWOT be the judge of that.

 

[esday1]

Simple solution, make a modernized A-10 for the Marine Corps. Nothing beats one of those for CAS. Plus with the maneuverability it already has, Im sure you could do a few mods to help it with short field work.

I doubt that would be so simple. The A-10 has been out of production for a long time, and as great an aircraft as it is, a lot of the components are now obsolete and the production facilities probably no longer exist. The DOD couldn't just send in a purchase order to Fairchild and say "we'll take another 500 of this aircraft you made 30 years ago, and while you're at it we pencilled in a few changes." You'd really be talking about starting an entirely new design/contracting/production/etc process. The A-10 is a great aircraft, but nothing is that easy.

 

[hendogg311]

Well, with a little force management and coordination, as soon as one bird pulled off winchester another rolls in loaded for bear... doesn't seem like it should be a difficult evolution to grasp, even for a jarhead.




Man is that all they carry? I guess they're totally useless and not absolutely perfect for a CAS mission. My bad. Which begs the question, if you were in the boots on the ground, you'd prefer to have larger munitions used in close?



Now that makes sense mmx1. Granted WWIII breaks out VSTOL aircraft will certainly be useful. But, in the GWOT, not so much, methinks.

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Disregard All. I'm buzzed.

The point is, if a sniper or machine gun position is in a building why sit there and shoot TOWs, or rockets at it all day (long like the Army did with Saddam's 2 sons) when you can level it with one bomb. And Marine fixed wing CAS is a little more precise than those Air Force guys.

 

[hendogg311]

troop proximity to the target is always in question. I think my original point was that a hornet or harrier can inflict much more damage on the battlefield than a cobra. However each has its place.

 

[Gatordev]

I really have no vested interest in the debate, but...

...my original point was that a hornet or harrier can inflict much more damage on the battlefield than a cobra.

This can be a reason why it might not be a good choice. Which is proably what you were alluding to w/ friendlies in the area.

 

[ip568]

http://www.gao.gov/cgi-bin/getrpt?GAO-06-356

 

[pilot_man]

**** off, I wasn't arguing with anyone. .

Quote:WEGL
Originally Posted by squeeze
A bunch of sh!t that insinuates there's only one bird on the Boat.

Why don't the two of you worry about your English comp II, or College Algebra, or whatever the sh!t is your learning and don't start sh!t with the guys who fly the damn things.

 

[jarhead]

You go to war with the planes you have, not the planes you'd like to have.

yea, stop drinking Rumsfeld Kool-Aid. and don't lecture me about "Operational Maneuver from the Sea" and other "visons" the Marines have, i've been in the Corps 14 years (6 of them flying), i know all about them. besides, if i was talking about stuff i'd "like to have" for war, i'd be wishing for Transformers & Go-Go gadets so Marines won't die in war. what is criminal though is, while shіthole countries like Vietnam, Ethopia, Eritrea are flying Flankers & shady Middle Eastern oil countries like the UAE are flying Block 60 Vipers with all the gouche equipment, we Marine aviators are flying ancient aircraft, some older than the Marine pilot that is flying it, while the capability to upgrade those ancient aircraft has been there for several years but our govt chooses to waste it elsewhere. the JSF is needed, but the govt could do better

 

[skidkid]

troop proximity to the target is always in question. I think my original point was that a hornet or harrier can inflict much more damage on the battlefield than a cobra. However each has its place.

Easy there high speed, what are you shooting at? What effects do you want? If you're talking raw tonnage yes they carry more and make bigger explosions but if you have a column of tanks you would probably be better off with a division of Snakes shooting lots of hellfires, not always but more often than not.

 

[mmx1]

yea, stop drinking Rumsfeld Kool-Aid. and don't lecture me about "Operational Maneuver from the Sea" and other "visons" the Marines have, i've been in the Corps 14 years (6 of them flying), i know all about them. besides, if i was talking about stuff i'd "like to have" for war, i'd be wishing for Transformers & Go-Go gadets so Marines won't die in war. what is criminal though is, while shіthole countries like Vietnam, Ethopia, Eritrea are flying Flankers & shady Middle Eastern oil countries like the UAE are flying Block 60 Vipers with all the gouche equipment, we Marine aviators are flying ancient aircraft, some older than the Marine pilot that is flying it, while the capability to upgrade those ancient aircraft has been there for several years but our govt chooses to waste it elsewhere. the JSF is needed, but the govt could do better

Aaaugh geez, the Rummy line was supposed to be funny. I'm in total agreement with your second post. Besides, the JSF, whatever version we get, will be a huge improvement over the Harrier and less of a lame duck in comparison with the A and C models than the Harrier is today in comparison with the F-18/15/16. HQ decided the performance hit was worth the operational flexibility; I'm not arguing pro or con, I'm just happy the harrier's getting a capable replacement.

If the lift fan flops as has been speculated, hell, we might end up with the C anyway.