vietnam era question

[Brian W]

any vietnam era aviators out there that might remember if one could become a naval aviator at 19 ?
I remember reading that during WWII Bush #1 became a navy aviator at age 19 but did the navy have this requirement in place during vietnam - and when was it discontinued ? Were there any who became aviators that young during the Vietnam conflict ?

 

[BusyBee604]

any vietnam era aviators out there that might remember if one could become a naval aviator at 19 ?
I remember reading that during WWII Bush #1 became a navy aviator at age 19 but did the navy have this requirement in place during vietnam - and when was it discontinued ? Were there any who became aviators that young during the Vietnam conflict ?

There were none that I know of during Vietnam. With the minimum age of 17 to join up/enlist, the quickest way to get wings would be to enlist, then after about 2 years as enlisted (and passing 2-yr college equivelancy test), be selected for flight training as a NAVCAD then (~18 mos. to wings/commissioning). So at best, might be possible to wing by age 20+, but everything would have to be seamless w/ no pools, good weather etc., very doubtful.

During WWII, different rules applied, as everything from training to promotions were accelerated. Even the USNA graduated MIDs after only 3 years.
BzB, Vietnam 1966-'72

 

[blackbart22]

At least two of my preflight classmates got their wings at twenty years old. They had enlisted right out of high school, passed the two year college equivelancy test and flight physical and made it through the program. One ended up a P-2V driver and the other a Ford (F-4D) driver. The latter was in VFAW - 3 and was the youngest Air Defense Command pilot ever. That squadron was based at NORIS and worked for the Air Force.

 

[BusyBee604]

The latter was in VFAW - 3 and was the youngest Air Defense Command pilot ever. That squadron was based at NORIS and worked for the Air Force.

Yo blackbart.... Nick, a preflight Bud of mine, winged in July '58 and was ordered to VF(AW)-3 at NORIS. Unfortunately, he never got to fly the 'Ford', as the CO at that time would not let first tour Nuggets check out in the Skyray??? After 6 months of whining & finagling, he finally was sent to VF-124 @ Moffett, which was then the F-8 Crusader RAG. Nick was a good stick, but got out and much later, retired as a NorthWest B-747 Captain. I'm sure he could have handled the Ford just fine.
*NAVCAD Nick - Preflight 44-56 1956

**VF(AW)-3 Skyray

BzB

 

[Flash]

any vietnam era aviators out there that might remember if one could become a naval aviator at 19 ?
I remember reading that during WWII Bush #1 became a navy aviator at age 19 but did the navy have this requirement in place during vietnam - and when was it discontinued ? Were there any who became aviators that young during the Vietnam conflict ?

President George H.W. Bush actually got winged when he was 18 years old, just a few days short of his 19th birthday.

 

[Brian W]

thanks for all of the details. This guy we met recently, he says he was a Navy pilot in Vietnam then we realised he is about 59 or 60- we thought that might be kind of young. But I guess it may be possible if he enlisted at 17, that would have been around 1970 then he could have gotten his wings aroung 1972-1973. Not sure how soon after getting his wings he would have gotten to an operational squadron.
Yes, I have been told that the USNA and other service academies are different from ROTC in that cadets are\were considered 'active duty-in training' whereas ROTC are\were considered 'in training'. So cadets are considered 'active duty'. As a result cadets can get into some training programs that ROTC cannot and can get comissioned early (as you pointed out in WWII) if congress decides. Not sure if this has actually happenned other than WWII.

 

[BusyBee604]

This guy we met recently, he says he was a Navy pilot in Vietnam then we realised he is about 59 or 60- we thought that might be kind of young. But I guess it may be possible if he enlisted at 17, that would have been around 1970 then he could have gotten his wings aroung 1972-1973.[/quote]

Starting in 1959, 2 Replacement Air Groups (RAGs), were established (AirPac - AirLant), each with a training squadron for each type aircraft. Newly designated NAs were sent through their type RAG squadron (now FRS) for 9-15 mos. prior to joining a fleet squadron for 1st sea tour. That would change the timeline above to 1973-1974. The final combat strikes over NVN were in very early 1973!

Not sure how soon after getting his wings he would have gotten to an operational squadron.

Per above an additional 9-15 mos. in FRS, depending on A/C type.

Yes, I have been told that the USNA and other service academies are different from ROTC in that cadets are\were considered 'active duty-in training' whereas ROTC are\were considered 'in training'. So cadets are considered 'active duty'.

USNA is considered active duty for pay purposes (longevity), but not for retirement purposes.

As a result cadets can get into some training programs that ROTC cannot and can get comissioned early (as you pointed out in WWII) if congress decides. Not sure if this has actually happenned other than WWII.

To the best of my knowledge, this has not occurred since WWII.

During WWII & previous, there were numerous cases of underage enlistments using forged birth documents... some were at ridiculously young ages (<13-16), so I imagine a rare few could have slipped through Pensacola and winged at sume crazy young age, without the Navy ever knowing any better??? With all the computerization, data tracking, & BIs these days, probably could never happen!
BzB

 

[Brian W]

BzB, thanks for all the knowledge of details on the timeline. Given that- I do not think it is likely he was in Vietnam like he says- seems like the time window for that possibility is just too small......

 

[Catmando]

.... I do not think it is likely he was in Vietnam like he says- seems like the time window for that possibility is just too small......

Agree! Highly unlikely if not downright impossible for this guy. Since I was of the same timeframe and one of the youngest among my peers, compare with my chronology.

1968, age 21: was commissioned as an Ensign upon college graduation (I was an AVROC) Started flight training 5 weeks later.​

​

[At that time the NavCad program had ended so an SNA needed a 4-year degree rather than 2 years of college.]​

​

1969, age 23: Winged in Oct. after 18 months of flight training.​

​

1970, age 23: Went to the F-4 RAG VF-121, after Maint. Mgt. School, SERE School, VF-126 instrument training, and a RAG training pool.​

​

1971, age 24: Finally made it to my fleet squadron and quickly made my 1st cruise to Vietnam and SEA, turning age 25 while on cruise. Although the squadron was loaded with JOs, I was the youngest pilot out of 15… although some NFOs were a few months younger.​

​

The Vietnam War ended in April, 1973.

 

[feddoc]

FWIW, the last American soldier killed in the Vietnam War an 18-year old Marine who was killed on May 15, 1975, two weeks after the evacuation of Saigon, in what became known as the Mayaguez incident. We left three Marines on Koh Tang Island during that incident. Those three are located on panel 1W, lines 130 - 131.

 

[Renegade One]

FWIW, the last American soldier killed in the Vietnam War an 18-year old Marine who was killed on May 15, 1975, two weeks after the evacuation of Saigon, in what became known as the Mayaguez incident. We left three Marines on Koh Tang Island during that incident. Those three are located on panel 1W, lines 130 - 131.

How does one ID "the last" when 3 were left behind? Did you mean "verifiably the youngest?" I come from a fairly...or "near to"...first-person perspective…we had the USMC Captain who commanded "the three" in our Ready Room on CORAL SEA that evening…and listened to him.

 

[feddoc]

R1, I suppose other are a lot of different ways to ID the last....date of death in country, date of declaration of death, etc.

No I did not mean youngest.

 

[picklesuit]

Wow, just read up on the Mayaguez incident; what a royal fuckup. Sad that a lack of communication cost so many lives.
Pickle

 

[Catmando]

The true “End of the Vietnam War” depends more upon one’s personal perspective than an actual date. For most of us, the war ended in early 1973:

“The Paris Peace Accords on ‘Ending the War and Restoring Peace in Vietnam’ were signed on 27 January 1973, officially ending direct U.S. involvement in the Vietnam War.”​

However I was still flying a few combat missions a week or two later in February 1973 (I believe into Laos or Cambodia and not Vietnam, though). But we were essentially done with the Vietnam War and were coming home. It was over for us!

​

February 12, 1973 - Operation Homecoming begins the release of 591 American POWs from Hanoi.​

March 29, 1973 - The last remaining American troops withdraw from Vietnam (except for Embassy security personnel).​

April 1, 1973 - Captain Robert White, the last known American POW is released.​

​

While the war had ended for us in 1973, the South Vietnamese continued the war for another two years until the “Fall of Saigon."

April 29, 1975 - On the day before the Fall of Saigon Marines Charles McMahon and Darwin Lee Judge were killed in a rocket attack. Link

[While McMahon and Judge were the last American ground casualties in Vietnam, they are not the last casualties of the Vietnam War (a term which also covers the U.S. involvement in Cambodia and Laos) recorded on the Vietnam Veterans Memorial; those names belong to the 18 Americans killed in the Mayaguez Incident.] ​

​

April 30, 1975 – Is the “official date” that the war ended with the Fall of Saigon. The last Americans, ten Marines from the embassy, depart Saigon, concluding the United States presence in Vietnam.

12–15, 1975 - Ironically, the bungled Mayaguez incident is listed as the “Last Official Battle of the Vietnam War,” even though it occurred nearly two weeks after the “official” end of the war. It was against the Cambodian Khmer Rouge, and not the Communist Vietnamese Peoples Army.
(Especially ironic is that the Khmer Rouge island defenses were set up to fight the VPA, and not Americans.)

Tragically for some others, the Vietnam War never did end! Some of those are discussed in the attached video, especially during the last 10 - 15 minutes or so.

 

[Renegade One]

Wow, just read up on the Mayaguez incident; what a royal fuckup. Sad that a lack of communication cost so many lives.
Pickle

The "Up side"…if there is one, is that it was from events like this that our nation "birthed" JSOC…and all of the many above/below the line forces that make it work every day. Pretty good legacy…even if none of those who died have their names attached to their legacy. Ah, well...