Vet hiring and the civ/mil divide: in which nittany03 threadjacks a threadjack

[Jim123]

There were a lot of guys going through OCS for Supply when I was a candidate (22 years ago, FWIW). A lot of them used to spout some gospel truth that the supply school in Athens plus a sea tour as a Navy Supply Officer was equivalent to getting an MBA. (In other words, a huge resume builder to later get a high paying career on the outside.) Of course, it was a laughable mess deck rumor, but a few guys really bought into it.

Looking back at the ones who really believed it, I wonder what the hell business school they had in mind... I missed out on a golden opportunity for a good counter-rumor about the JAG course in Newport being taught by an adjunct professor from the Dewey, Cheatham, and Howe School of Law. And the power school in Charleston featuring session lecturers Homer Simpson and Red Green.

Then again, in a few more years then one or two of is probably going to be a SES. I guess the joke is on me.

 

[nittany03]

There were a lot of guys going through OCS for Supply when I was a candidate (22 years ago, FWIW). A lot of them used to spout some gospel truth that the supply school in Athens plus a sea tour as a Navy Supply Officer was equivalent to getting an MBA. (In other words, a huge resume builder to later get a high paying career on the outside.) Of course, it was a laughable mess deck rumor, but a few guys really bought into it.

That's like the the old wives' tale of "you've got a security clearance and you're TACAIR; you shouldn't settle for less than six figures on the outside!" Uhh . . . guess what? That happens if you're a senior O-5 or O-6 whose transition plan is to parlay your metaphorical Rolodex into a lobbying job for the military-industrial complex. Or if your skillset just happens to translate directly into civilian terms, a la the so-called Show. Otherwise, you're just another dude or chick who's switching industries, which almost always means a step back in seniority to get your foot in the door. And it's on you to pitch your experience to a recruiter and hiring manager who in all likelihood know precisely dick about the military. Most civilians don't. Doesn't mean they're bad people.

I came off my MOB, took a 4-month tech bootcamp as a refresher, and applied to 33 jobs before I got the interview that led to the offer for the company I work at now. By the time the offer was formalized and I quit my job hunt, I'd applied to 81 jobs. Any winged aviator worth their salt has the skillset to crush it in the private sector, but if you think the private sector understands that, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. The hard part is the initial hop to get the civilian stink on you, so next time you can condense all those "US Navy" resume bullets to like four vague lines, and punch up your civilian experience. Hard truth after fighting and sacrificing for gold wings few civilians could ever so much as smell, but it is what it is . . .

 

[Treetop Flyer]

That's like the the old wives' tale of "you've got a security clearance and you're TACAIR; you shouldn't settle for less than six figures on the outside!" Uhh . . . guess what? That happens if you're a senior O-5 or O-6 whose transition plan is to parlay your metaphorical Rolodex into a lobbying job for the military-industrial complex. Or if your skillset just happens to translate directly into civilian terms, a la the so-called Show. Otherwise, you're just another dude or chick who's switching industries, which almost always means a step back in seniority to get your foot in the door. And it's on you to pitch your experience to a recruiter and hiring manager who in all likelihood know precisely dick about the military. Most civilians don't. Doesn't mean they're bad people.

I came off my MOB, took a 4-month tech bootcamp as a refresher, and applied to 33 jobs before I got the interview that led to the offer for the company I work at now. By the time the offer was formalized and I quit my job hunt, I'd applied to 81 jobs. Any winged aviator worth their salt has the skillset to crush it in the private sector, but if you think the private sector understands that, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. The hard part is the initial hop to get the civilian stink on you, so next time you can condense all those "US Navy" resume bullets to like four vague lines, and punch up your civilian experience. Hard truth after fighting and sacrificing for gold wings few civilians could ever so much as smell, but it is what it is . . .

My last AD CO retired as an O-5 and likely started at well over the six figure mark at a well known SF tech company. However he was a extraordinary person and leader, with a borderline unhealthy work ethic.

 

[nittany03]

My last AD CO retired as an O-5 and likely started at well over the six figure mark at a well known SF tech company. However he was a extraordinary person and leader, with a borderline unhealthy work ethic.

And paychecks adjust for cost of living; if you live in SF, cost of living is insane if you don't make six figures there. It's all in your network, what you can pitch, and most importantly who's hiring. God help folks transitioning right now; I know my company is on a headcount freeze. Only hiring is to replace departures and lateral moves.

Common theme for most folks I've seen make the transition who were solid people in the squadron is take a step back, prove yourself, and the raises start coming.

 

[Treetop Flyer]

And paychecks adjust for cost of living; if you live in SF, cost of living is insane if you don't make six figures there. It's all in your network, what you can pitch, and most importantly who's hiring. God help folks transitioning right now; I know my company is on a headcount freeze. Only hiring is to replace departures and lateral moves.

Common theme for most folks I've seen make the transition who were solid people in the squadron is take a step back, prove yourself, and the raises start coming.

My point was that he’s doing very well. What you said is very accurate but also people shouldn’t sell themselves short

 

[Hair Warrior]

God help folks transitioning right now

Home - Talent War Group

Talent War Group is a leading management consulting and executive search firm focused on helping our clients optimize the people side of their businesses.

www.efoverwatch.com

That site skews a bit SOF-heavy, but thanks to a retired Marine aviator named Dave Berke they also allow former aviators into their program. Free online training and job placement support.

 

[ABMD]

There were a lot of guys going through OCS for Supply when I was a candidate (22 years ago, FWIW). A lot of them used to spout some gospel truth that the supply school in Athens plus a sea tour as a Navy Supply Officer was equivalent to getting an MBA. (In other words, a huge resume builder to later get a high paying career on the outside.) Of course, it was a laughable mess deck rumor, but a few guys really bought into it.

Looking back at the ones who really believed it, I wonder what the hell business school they had in mind... I missed out on a golden opportunity for a good counter-rumor about the JAG course in Newport being taught by an adjunct professor from the Dewey, Cheatham, and Howe School of Law. And the power school in Charleston featuring session lecturers Homer Simpson and Red Green.

Then again, in a few more years then one or two of is probably going to be a SES. I guess the joke is on me.

Lol, Supply school is NOTHING like getting an MBA.

 

[nittany03]

That site skews a bit SOF-heavy, but thanks to a retired Marine aviator named Dave Berke they also allow former aviators into their program. Free online training and job placement support.

DuffelBlog: Veteran gets job helping veterans find jobs helping veterans find jobs

Again . . . yes, SOF and aviators have skillsets that will serve them very, very well when the rubber meets the road. And yes, there's a whole cottage industry of companies doing vet recruitment. Which is outstanding and needed. But honestly, depending on what industry you're in and where you want to work, punching up "combat" experience may be detrimental, not helpful.

Some civilians are anti-military. Some folks subconsciously fear the military and people in uniform. Some folks think we're all a bunch of alt-right MAGA bros. Some folks think we all have PTSD, and that we might be potential active shooters. Some folks think "military leadership" is just screaming and yelling at people. Some folks think we can't think for ourselves, and need to be told what to do. TL;DR, military experience, even "elite" military service, isn't automatically seen as a resume enhancer, and to some hiring managers or recruiters, it may be just the opposite. Bias is indeed a thing, even for people who consider themselves "progressive." Don't get me wrong, this isn't to say there aren't people who are pro-military or neutral. There are, but still.

Those who've seen me in person know I'm not the largest, most musclebound dude in the room. Before I worked in the private sector, I'd never been called "intimidating." Those who've served with me in person can tell stories about how I'm not afraid to put a unique spin or description on things if it's what comes to mind, because a) it's my way of talking, and I don't care, and b) people often think it's funny. I had my own page in the squadron quote log. Fast forward to civvie street, and I get told in an otherwise-glowing performance review that one of the things I needed to work on was not using so many Navy-isms. That's right, people looked at all those off-the-wall @nittany03-isms that had gotten me laughs in the past, assumed that they were all Navy-isms because they didn't understand them right away, and then assumed that that was proof that I was hanging on to the past, and not adapting to the private sector as well as I could. Again, bias shows up when you least expect it . . .

 

[Hair Warrior]

DuffelBlog: Veteran gets job helping veterans find jobs helping veterans find jobs

Again . . . yes, SOF and aviators have skillsets that will serve them very, very well when the rubber meets the road. And yes, there's a whole cottage industry of companies doing vet recruitment. Which is outstanding and needed. But honestly, depending on what industry you're in and where you want to work, punching up "combat" experience may be detrimental, not helpful.

Some civilians are anti-military. Some folks subconsciously fear the military and people in uniform. Some folks think we're all a bunch of alt-right MAGA bros. Some folks think we all have PTSD, and that we might be potential active shooters. Some folks think "military leadership" is just screaming and yelling at people. Some folks think we can't think for ourselves, and need to be told what to do. TL;DR, military experience, even "elite" military service, isn't automatically seen as a resume enhancer, and to some hiring managers or recruiters, it may be just the opposite. Bias is indeed a thing, even for people who consider themselves "progressive." Don't get me wrong, this isn't to say there aren't people who are pro-military or neutral. There are, but still.

Those who've seen me in person know I'm not the largest, most musclebound dude in the room. Before I worked in the private sector, I'd never been called "intimidating." Those who've served with me in person can tell stories about how I'm not afraid to put a unique spin or description on things if it's what comes to mind, because a) it's my way of talking, and I don't care, and b) people often think it's funny. I had my own page in the squadron quote log. Fast forward to civvie street, and I get told in an otherwise-glowing performance review that one of the things I needed to work on was not using so many Navy-isms. That's right, people looked at all those off-the-wall @nittany03-isms that had gotten me laughs in the past, assumed that they were all Navy-isms because they didn't understand them right away, and then assumed that that was proof that I was hanging on to the past, and not adapting to the private sector as well as I could. Again, bias shows up when you least expect it . . .

Well that sucks. Don’t worry, in my experience those reviews don’t mean squat, and only your immediate boss’s opinion matters - for better or worse. Can I ask what type of organization it is?

 

[nittany03]

Well that sucks. Don’t worry, in my experience those reviews don’t mean squat, and only your immediate boss’s opinion matters - for better or worse. Can I ask what type of organization it is?

Trust me. Very little sucks. My boss and I have a great working relationship, and I'm on a pretty good team. I work in software development for a large company whose business is not software. I am not a developer myself, but am "developer-adjacent." That's specific enough for a public forum. My job has its pluses and minuses, but as jobs go, it's not bad, especially these days. The point isn't my performance review; I am well aware that the civ world doesn't run on FITREP 500 rules. I brought it up to argue a point using my personal experience as an example.

The point is that there are many varying views about the military in civ life, and that even the more glamorous jobs like carrier aviator and SOF operator don't necessarily always come with the cachet that separating servicemembers think that they do. In civ life, a lot of people just don't know enough about the military to know what wings, a trident, or a triple canopy even mean. There are pro-military folks, anti-military folks, and people who are neutral. Either way, though, "veteran" is a demographic that sets off a whole bunch of biases in people's heads, especially people who have little to no experience with or exposure to the military. Some people will be impressed. Some people will be intimidated. Some people will condescend. Any of those groups are likely to assume certain things about you based on their archetype of "veteran" that may or may not have anything to do with who you really are.

Once again, it's on the individual to work the network and build the personal relationships and industry cred to succeed in Career #2. Regardless of what you did 5 years ago, people care what you can bring to the table now, and even more importantly, if you're someone they can stand to be in the office with every day. Oh, and some of the people who did't know what those gold wings even meant still will turn out to be great co-workers . . .

 

[MIDNJAC]

Either way, though, "veteran" is a demographic that sets off a whole bunch of biases in people's heads, especially people who have little to no experience with or exposure to the military. Some people will be impressed. Some people will be intimidated. Some people will condescend. Any of those groups are likely to assume certain things about you based on their archetype of "veteran" that may or may not have anything to do with who you really are.

Fully agree. Probably also depends on where you are to a certain extent. When a younger me would go home on holiday leave, and go out to the bars with friends (and their other friends), it was always interesting to see what the typical PNW hipster had to say or ask after a few beers when the inevitable question came up about what I did for a living. More than a couple of those folks, whom I hadn't previously known, asked me things just like Nittany mentioned....."do you have PTSD?"....."have you ever thought about getting out and going to college?". I'm sure some of those very people are now king of their own little HR rice bowl somewhere. Or your coworker.

 

[DanMa1156]

The previous posts bring two stories to mind:

1. I was a lifeguard in high school -worked several jobs - but one I worked at for 4 years consecutively. When the original owner of the water park sold the company he and his daughter (manager) told me I was one of the smarter ones they employed and should go to college instead of the Navy (I was Academy bound, they didn't quite understand that). The new owner and managers were just despicable for whom I hated working and I was on my way out for plebe summer, so my concern for the company went way down. When I didn't clean something to satisfaction one day the owner came screaming at me at my lifeguard stand saying "if you think you'll get away cleaning something like that in the Navy you have another thing coming to you! They will make you run around a ship with a torpedo!!" I looked him straight and the eye and said "Do you know how heavy a torpedo is? Do you think they make Sailors run around a ship with heavy explosives? Are you an idiot?" My mom lectured me that night about how I shouldn't burn bridges and I would never know when I would need this brand new owner as a reference... 14 years later, still haven't needed him.

2. I remember one of the Superintendants at the Academy telling us about the civil-military divide, and how very recently as we was going through BWI with his whites on and his 3-star shoulder boards, a few people started asking him questions about the Army and, despite insisting he was in the Navy, they responded back with "thanks Sarge." He compared that to how in the past, most Americans would have recognized whites as a Navy uniform, and few would have called him "Sarge," or confused him for a Sergeant, recognizing at least that he was an officer.

 

[Birdbrain]

Trust me. Very little sucks. My boss and I have a great working relationship, and I'm on a pretty good team. I work in software development for a large company whose business is not software. I am not a developer myself, but am "developer-adjacent." That's specific enough for a public forum. My job has its pluses and minuses, but as jobs go, it's not bad, especially these days. The point isn't my performance review; I am well aware that the civ world doesn't run on FITREP 500 rules. I brought it up to argue a point using my personal experience as an example.

The point is that there are many varying views about the military in civ life, and that even the more glamorous jobs like carrier aviator and SOF operator don't necessarily always come with the cachet that separating servicemembers think that they do. In civ life, a lot of people just don't know enough about the military to know what wings, a trident, or a triple canopy even mean. There are pro-military folks, anti-military folks, and people who are neutral. Either way, though, "veteran" is a demographic that sets off a whole bunch of biases in people's heads, especially people who have little to no experience with or exposure to the military. Some people will be impressed. Some people will be intimidated. Some people will condescend. Any of those groups are likely to assume certain things about you based on their archetype of "veteran" that may or may not have anything to do with who you really are.

Once again, it's on the individual to work the network and build the personal relationships and industry cred to succeed in Career #2. Regardless of what you did 5 years ago, people care what you can bring to the table now, and even more importantly, if you're someone they can stand to be in the office with every day. Oh, and some of the people who did't know what those gold wings even meant still will turn out to be great co-workers . . .

From what you're saying, Sir, it seems like some people hear that you're a "Veteran" and concoct an idea in their head of what you are all about instead of actually paying attention and finding out who you actually are as a person.

 

[Dontcallmegump]

"if you think you'll get away cleaning something like that in the Navy you have another thing coming to you! They will make you run around a ship with a torpedo!!"

This brings to mind a few similar interactions...

I had a teacher in high school who had taken a single NROTC class, was never in the program, but knew I wanted to go to college become an officer, fly etc. She would use her "experience" to chastise me every time I did something she didn't like and throw in my face "you have to do exactly what you're told all the time, you don't get to think for yourself , if you can't do this how I told you, how will you make it?". Funny enough she was fairly agreeable most of the time and even a family friend. Saw her last christmas leave and flying came up, I used the opportunity to explain the concept of "you're paid for your judgement". Plenty of other times come to mind where people who spent exactly zero seconds in uniform would verbatim, tell me how I wouldn't make it, most often in reference to something they didn't like based on some preconceived secondhand notion of what service means.

Another time I was all but accused of being gullible and lied to by a recruiter. A family in town had all 3 of their kids enlist in the navy (more or less their choice) and the father had been in the marines. The mother was asking about why I was going to college and couldn't fathom why that was necessary to join the navy. I tried to explain what an officer was, that they needed to go to college and the difference in jobs, especially flying. She was convinced I had been lied to and was very matter of fact that her kids hadn't needed to so I must be mistaken.

That's when I realized the general public knows almost nothing about the military and what they think they know is probably wrong.

 

[Spekkio]

That's when I realized the general public knows almost nothing about the military and what they think they know is probably wrong.

Even better when you get the same questions from family the few times you can see them over the holidays or between PCS.

One of the common misconceptions is that when you're in port you just shut it all down and take vacation.

It's gotten to the point where I just avoid talking about it rather than explain the same thing for the 5th time.