USN may add conformal fuel tanks to F/A-18E/F fleet

[MasterBates]

Yes, I realize there is more to it than "hey, we got these things parked in the desert that need some work, but are paid for" and looking at that vs the cost to buy new Rhinos to replace ones getting worn out prematurely.

How detailed do you desire I make my posts? Go through the entire cost from manning the squadron, to their FCLP dets, to paying Jim Bob from Schneider to truck spare parts to JAX and SD from the boneyard?

At some point, any simplification beyond the actual end state is going to make someone balk at it. However, I think just getting the general concept out there to illustrate an analogy in the terms a normal person can relate to has value.

 

[Flash]

Heard a rumor from a TPS guy that folks are looking at the cost of bringing back the S-3 for tanking only.

It is a semi-serious proposal that has gotten some traction, whether or not big Navy buys into it is a big question.

True, but have they looked into the fact that the trap life on some of the rhinos are getting eat up by it.......

The TPS pilot said something about SuperHornets getting wing cracks from the buddy stores. Don't know if its true or not, just conveying what was told to me.

Not sure about the cracks but the Navy is expending the life of the Super Hornets and Growlers at a much faster rate than was envisioned when they bought them and planned how long they would have them. One of the biggest things the they could make some 'money' on was cutting the tanking. And the S-3's still have the majority of their airframe life left in them.

......There are MANY inherent costs with "parking" an airplane. See NAS Whidbey/CVWP and the idea of "preservation"....

That is one of the biggest stumbling blocks to bringing them back, the three range clearance birds they brought of the boneyard took a long time to get through PDM because almost all of the corporate knowledge on S-3's was gone in the short time since they had been retired. I think the first one took 18 months to get through PDM just because they were trying to figure everything they needed to do to it all over again. That problem would lessen considerably if they did a lot more of them.

What would an S-3 tanker's give amount be in lbs of gas? How does that compare w/ Buddy Stores or whatever we're doing now?

One part of the proposal is to start out with just the buddy stores but later mod them to carry more gas.

The more important question is... how much $$$ would it take to field, equip and maintain a fleet of S-3s? The answer is too much. Legacy airframes like that are O&M money pits. Someone did this cost/benefit calculus when they killed the S-3s in the first place. I doubt much has changed.

That is exactly why the S-3 tanking proposal has semi-seriously been considered. The cost to extend the life of the Super Hornets looks to be a lot more than bringing the S-3's out of retirement, not to mention buying more Rhinos to replace the ones they have expended the life on is certainly a lot more expensive.

Simply put, some of the cost-benefit analysis being done is actually favorable to the S-3 being brought out of the boneyard. Legacy airframes are sometimes money pits but not always, all of the EP-3's are old P-3's out of the boneyard and the same for RC-135's. And there would be plenty of spares, the whole fleet would not be brought back and the rest used as spares. As for a serious cost-benefit analysis being done before the S-3 was retired in the first place I am not so sure it was as through as one would assume.

 

[MasterBates]

What Master would do:
Stand up VAK or VSK (since they could still do SSC, and other ASuW missions, even with ASW gear gone) squadrons.. one per coast, like CODs.
In house RAG, like VR squadrons.
Send dets of 3-4 KS-3s out like a COD det, but they stay on the boat. We have less aircraft on board now, but I'm sure the handler will bitch.
Since it's a short life community, make it a disassociated tour for "JOPA", and an OP-T equivalent for OIC and COs..
Alternatively, make the OIC for the det a guy who has done a DH tour, but has "time" before ACSB.

Yes, people will wonder where we will get the manpower. Well, there are a lot of IAs and other shit that senior leadership should be pushing back on.. Look at all the staffs we have sucking up money in DC and Norfolk alone. How many of those do we NEED to do a function, and how many of those do we have to justify yet another flag?

 

[MasterBates]

Forgot to add.. Make it so any Tailhook JO can go there. E-2s, C-2s, VFA/VAQ.

I'll let HooverPilot speak to how the Viking is behind the boat, but I think any tailhooker with a JO tour under his belt could do fairly well in a new plane at the boat.. Only holdup might be lack of night quals for the COD guys, but that could be covered in initial CQ. Googles for night SSC isn't that hard to learn to fly on for the E-2 guys.. Fighter guys will probably bitch it's not a fighter.

 

[Flash]

.....Stand up VAK.....Send dets of 3-4 KS-3s out like a COD det, but they stay on the boat. We have less aircraft on board now, but I'm sure the handler will bitch. Since it's a short life community, make it a disassociated tour for "JOPA", and an OP-T equivalent for OIC and COs.........

That is actually pretty close to the proposal I am familiar with.

 

[phrogdriver]

That would be a kick-ass way to spend a disassociated tour.

Here's the thing--when CVN aviation was looking at necking down everything to different flavors of F-18, shouldn't the fact that using it as a tanker adds traps and hours have been figured in to the cost equation from the word "go?" I mean, you know how much fuel a Rhino can carry, you know how much an air wing tanks, etc. It shouldn't have been hard to figure out how many extra sorties that would be. I know the wars change that a little, but still--we're in the military--wars shouldn't be a complete shocker. Once you know how many extra sorties, you figure that into your expected hours, maint, etc.

It's utterly appalling that the Rhino's only been out a few years and it's already having lifecycle issues, due not to the airframe (to my limited knowledge) but (from what's been outlined above) piss-poor planning.

 

[scoober78]

Not sure about the cracks but the Navy is expending the life of the Super Hornets and Growlers at a much faster rate than was envisioned when they bought them and planned how....

Copy that tanking is eating into airframe fatigue life with Rhino's but what gives with the Growlers?

I've heard told that there are some pretty draconian limitations being put on the envelope as a result of accelerated airframe fatigue...things such as "break like a P-3" etc...

If tanking isn't the culprit, then what the hell is?

 

[Flash]

Copy that tanking is eating into airframe fatigue life with Rhino's but what gives with the Growlers?

I've heard told that there are some pretty draconian limitations being put on the envelope as a result of accelerated airframe fatigue...things such as "break like a P-3" etc...

If tanking isn't the culprit, then what the hell is?

Too much yanking and banking with externals from what I have been told. That and they are simply flying them more than expected.

 

[Harrier Dude]

Too much yanking and banking with externals from what I have been told. That and they are simply flying them more than expected.

You mean like BFM? Who could've possibly predicted that?

 

[nittany03]

You mean like BFM? Who could've possibly predicted that?

Because nothing has gone horribly wrong if VAQ guys are going to the merge . . .

 

[Harrier Dude]

Because nothing has gone horribly wrong if VAQ guys are going to the merge . . .

That's my point. Not sure if my sarcasm meter is out of cal.

 

[insanebikerboy]

Well, this begs the question, when the S-3 tanker returns to the airing, how long before the KS-3 JO's start wanking about not making CAG???

 

[scoolbubba]

We train to operate in places where that's not an option. And when it's not actual blue water ops taking place, obviously there is a bingo state beneath that notional tank state and we will bingo if necessary. But the middle of the ocean, 600nm from any field, is not the place to find out your airwing's tanking procedures need work.

Shit that came out literally 180 off from what I wanted to say. Gas is always cheaper to dump than giving one back to the taxpayers. Roger all.

 

[scoolbubba]

Forgot to add.. Make it so any Tailhook JO can go there. E-2s, C-2s, VFA/VAQ.

I'll let HooverPilot speak to how the Viking is behind the boat, but I think any tailhooker with a JO tour under his belt could do fairly well in a new plane at the boat.. Only holdup might be lack of night quals for the COD guys, but that could be covered in initial CQ. Googles for night SSC isn't that hard to learn to fly on for the E-2 guys.. Fighter guys will probably bitch it's not a fighter.

I would drop a transfer packet to pass gas for all you FAGs.

 

[Brett327]

Words...

Ain't gonna happen. Write it down.