The Naples incident/how to ruin your career before it's started/make others suffer

[UMichfly]

When I say idle time and boredom, I am not just speaking of a couple days here or there....more like weeks on end with nothing else to do. Some folks are just less creative with their free time

As someone who has been subjected to asinine busy work to keep you out of trouble (like "helping"/interfering with the morning FOD walk every day here) I kinda thought you'd be on the other side of this conversation. Let's just hope "Macho" isn't trolling this board or he'll think you want more watch or something.

 

[usmarinemike]

Such hate, guys! I love it. I even got negative rep out of it! So we're obviously not going to reach a concensus on this one. Perhaps I came in a little heavy. After all, that's what I do around here.

It needs to be clear though, that I don't have any intent to tout that being a Marine is better or worse or being in the Navy is better or worse. Seems like a lot of people latch onto the fact that our services are different and needle away at that. Such is not the case.

Some points:

1) O-1s need guidance. We need an example to follow because we're all making a transition whether it's from civilian to officer, enlisted to officer, or midshipman to officer, or whatever.

2) These guys are tools, but so are/were many more of us. The idea is to develop them. The onus here belongs to the leadership. This didn't have to happen.

3) And it's not about making people "work" more. I've been on the wrong end of painting rocks, raking sand, and burning garbage. Don't think I've forgotten about it. It's about pushing them to be more.

 

[armada1651]

2) These guys are tools, but so are/were many more of us. The idea is to develop them. The onus here belongs to the leadership. This didn't have to happen.

I disagree pretty strongly with this point. These guys were pieces of shit that slipped through the cracks of the commissioning programs. They didn't have the character or intelligence to be Naval officers, and they needed to be separated, not developed.

That may have come out harsher than I intended...maybe I've spent too much time reading those comment boards from the Naples news media. I swear, I have no delusions of saltiness.

 

[Ducky]

I disagree pretty strongly with this point. These guys were pieces of shit that slipped through the cracks of the commissioning programs. They didn't have the character or intelligence to be Naval officers, and they needed to be separated, not developed.

+1 Well said

 

[xj220]

That's one that always annoyed me at the Academy was how people could always be "remediated" no matter the offense. You would see some pretty shitty people pushed on through who should have been dropped early on in training. I agree though, some people get started on the wrong foot and could use a little guidance to set them straight. However, at this point (commissioned officer ready to begin flight training), you shouldn't make such an egregious error.

 

[nittany03]

1) O-1s need guidance. We need an example to follow because we're all making a transition whether it's from civilian to officer, enlisted to officer, or midshipman to officer, or whatever.

I rebut you thus. Further, what kind of handholding "guidance" does the average Ensign need who is not getting arrested or out-of-control drunk? Advice on how to wait more effectively? There's no way you can tell who the rockstars and who the strugglers are going to be before anyone starts API. All you can tell are the ones who can't be trusted as adults, and thus probably shouldn't have been commissioned.

2) These guys are tools, but so are/were many more of us. The idea is to develop them. The onus here belongs to the leadership. This didn't have to happen.

There is a HUGE difference in degree. These people were beyond "tools." There's a world of difference between committing a felony and realizing you've just been being a jackass.

Of course it didn't HAVE to happen. But the responsibility and the accountability belong to the people who were arrested. No one else pulled that trigger. Not their CO, not their Company Commander at the Academy, not their parents, and not their fifth grade Social Studies teacher. Come on.

3) And it's not about making people "work" more. I've been on the wrong end of painting rocks, raking sand, and burning garbage. Don't think I've forgotten about it. It's about pushing them to be more.

This is A-pool we're talking about, not flight school. I think what you are viewing as the latter is actually closer to the former.

 

[Pags]

Some folks are just less creative with their free time

No, the issue is that some folks are MORE creative with their free time. What ever happened to the gym, the links, working on your tan, and maybe trying to meet some girls?

Just follow the JOTTP and stay under the leadership radar and get to API/Primary. Is it really that hard?

 

[IRfly]

Don't "they" say that integrity is doing the right thing when no one is looking? What a rare and beautiful opportunity the aviation community has to do a six-month integrity check on all these budding aviators!! They should do something like that Navy-wide. In fact, my own personal integrity is probably feeling a little questionable these days; I think I'm due for my three-year re-up...

 

[MIDNJAC]

No, the issue is that some folks are MORE creative with their free time. What ever happened to the gym, the links, working on your tan, and maybe trying to meet some girls?

Just follow the JOTTP and stay under the leadership radar and get to API/Primary. Is it really that hard?

What I meant was that going to the bars every night and doing nothing else CAN be a recipe for problems depending on the individual.

And no, it really wasn't that hard

 

[BACONATOR]

JAC and Mike and everyone else that believes that we should have our hands held:

If you believe that, then go join the air force. If Naval/Marine Officers can't be trusted to not get freaking ARRESTED (nevermind even in trouble) or can't be trusted to be honest and accountable, then they shouldn't be officers. And everyone else should NOT be punished for it. That's how the air force works.

That and, like usual, this thread seems to be reeking of the usual arrogance that Marines have thinking they are somehow better than Naval officers. The freaking special briefs the Marines get whenever checking about how they are "better than" us and need to "lead by example" makes me sick.

 

[Sky-Pig]

There are two separate, but related, issues here...in my opinion.

1. The criminal actions of 4 commissioned officers.
2. The extraordinary amount of free time in A-pool.

WRT to issue #1...water finds it own level and individuals with poor judgement and a willingness to break the law probably would have found an "outlet" no matter what their A-pool muster situation.

It's lucky for the Navy that they decided to show their colors prior to any other training time and effort. Their time at USNA was already a sunk cost. Good riddance.

WRT to issue #2...old sayings and proverbs tend to have been coined and remembered for a reason. I always come back to "idle hands are the devil's workshop". The primary difference between a 20 year old E-1 with little to occupy his time and a 22 year old O-1 with little to occupy his time is four years of education, different pay and a couple of years of life experience. In other words...not much.

Simply because a young man or woman has been minted an ensign or 2nd LT does not suddenly alter their propensity to get into trouble...there are solid reasons why your car insurance drops after age 25.

And...here comes my post-DH / hinge mind-set...it doesn't really change once you hit the fleet. I've seen many otherwise solid and professional officers and enlisted sailors get into trouble due to excessive free time. They weren't bad people...just bored in many cases. I saw that as a MIDN, a SNFO, a fleet JO and forward-deployed OIC.

While some free time is good since the Navy will always get its pound of flesh out of you later...well, ice cream is pretty good but I'm too keen on eating a couple of gallons at a time.

I disagree with using dickish uniform inspections and pointless physical musters as a solution...with all the IAs/GSAs impacting commands Navy-wide I'm convinced there are real tasks/jobs that the A-pool manpower sink could fulfill. What other organization would waste manpower on this scale? Or act surprised when something bad happens as a result?

Trust me...I like the idea of allowing folks to sink or swim on their own but I do not agree with providing the water and the heavy weight belt.

If our mission as officers was so black and white as to have only the options of "give no help" or "molly-coddle until selected for command"...then we wouldn't need to worry. However our mission is hard precisely because it is a gray world without cut and dried answers or solutions.

Like it or not, O-1s need guidance and instruction...and sitting on your keister in A-pool phone mustering was never a good answer.

End rant / soap box sermon.

 

[MIDNJAC]

My point was not that A-poolers need their "hands held" or even that they need more musters (or whatever has been proposed). I do think:

1. A-pool is maybe a bit too long for a lot of people....I think it was a good idea to start keeping folks at their original commissioning sources until API/IFS was about ready for them.

2. It is a time when people are most vulnerable for getting into trouble. Nothing more, nothing less and I don't think there is anything that can be done to change this (short of the ridiculous). These guys f'd it away and obviously weren't being careful enough.

 

[S.O.B.]

It is a time when people are most vulnerable for getting into trouble.

If you can't handle keeping yourself out of trouble as a result of extra free time, then you're probably in the wrong business.

 

[HAL Pilot]

Giving a pool O-1 a meaningful stash job is one thing. Giving him a make work stash job to keep him from having idle time or to keep him out of trouble is BS. If he can't fill his idle time and keep out of trouble on his own, then he should never have been commissioned in the first place.

Make work will always be the lazy leaders way out. It's easier to keep them so busy they can't get in trouble then just to trust them and punish the violators. They're officers - they either need to sink or swim on their own. Or they shouldn't be officers.

A-pool is just Naval Aviations version of Darwin at work.

I KNOW about idle time......I sit reserve at my airline and have at least 20+ days a month of idle time. I keep myself occupied and out of trouble. I love my idle time.

 

[FLYTPAY]

I keep myself occupied and out of trouble. I love my idle time.

HAL, you just don't get caught