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The Monster COD thread (homage to the C-2A Greyhound)

MIDNJAC

is clara ship
pilot
And to think that the AC was worried about the ramifications of overtorquing both engines... I'd still take a Class B mishap (for the engines) than a Class A.
I heard they lost one coming back to the beach, and lost the other after landing (or it was just a write off or something). Probably random rumor mill stuff, but that is also scary if true. Cool to hear that they got Air Medals.....from what I heard, everyone thought they were going to lose it. I just enjoyed the story of folks yelling at them to "CLIMB! CLIMB!".....yeah "sorry sir, we were just fucking around, but now we will be serious"
 

Moc1Sig

Active Member
pilot
Contributor
. I just enjoyed the story of folks yelling at them to "CLIMB! CLIMB!".....yeah "sorry sir, we were just fucking around, but now we will be serious"
"Sir, do I yell at you while you are taking a shit?"
 

kmac

FLIP Maker
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
They didn't know that anyone said "climb! climb!" until they heard it on the PLAT cam long after the incident. The amazing part was that they got the flaps tracking down while still on the cat's run. It's just my guess, but I imagine that they probably would have been at stall speed had they not done that.
 

BACONATOR

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
Stupid non-hook pilot question: Are flaps not a normal part of a cat shot? I'd figure you'd want every bernoulli possible making lift. If not, is it due to drag?
 

e6bflyer

Used to Care
pilot
Flaps are extended, but only to a takeoff flaps setting. As a shooter, we just checked that flaps are in fact somewhat extended. Of course, that is after both pilots and the final checkers check the same thing, so it is pretty redundant. We would verify flap settings and end speeds, but only with the C-2. You had to use hand signals and get a thumbs up from the copilot. I asked our COD OIC why we had to verify that, and he said that other than it is in the NATOPS, he had no idea. Props are actually the softest shot on the boat with the exception of the clown jet. The catapult setting for a fully laden prop was somewhere around 120-130. As I recall, it was in the 300-330 range for asym 3 Rhinos. Clown jets are sub-100. We used to compute end speeds just for trend analysis, and even if we shot on wind, the excess was typically 20ish knots (the charts are designed for 10-15) on Lincoln. Some cats shot stronger than others.
Landing flaps in fixed wing aircraft are typically extended a lot more and you are making a trade off between a lot more induced drag due to the barn doors hanging out, requiring more power to maintain level flight, and slower approach speeds, which you want on landing.
 

BusyBee604

St. Francis/Hugh Hefner Combo!
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
Stupid non-hook pilot question: Are flaps not a normal part of a cat shot? I'd figure you'd want every bernoulli possible making lift. If not, is it due to drag?
Can't make a blanket statement on cat-shot flap position, as it varies by type aircraft/gross weight.

In the A-4 it's 1/2 flaps for all but light gross weight (carqual <16,000#) fuel loads. Yes, full flaps have excessive drag v lift at gross weights exceeding A-4 max trap wt. (>16,500#).:eek:
BzB
 

MIDNJAC

is clara ship
pilot
Landing flaps in fixed wing aircraft are typically extended a lot more and you are making a trade off between a lot more induced drag due to the barn doors hanging out, requiring more power to maintain level flight, and slower approach speeds, which you want on landing.
Yep, we do cat shots in the Hornet at HF, with a slightly greater nose up trim setting than used for shore ops. FF for standard CV landing, though there are some cases where we use HF instead. Like e6b said, HF is a good tradeoff between lift and drag. I can't speak specifically for the COD, but in the Hornet you primarily get your stall protection from the leading edge flaps (LEF's) and you get slow approach speeds from the added drag from the trailing edge flaps (TEF's). LEF's are 30 down for both HF and FF settings, so I am going to go out on a limb and say that FF (with TEFs at 43/45 compared to 30 for HF) don't buy you anything else other than a bunch of drag. But I'm not a MacAir engineer so that is mostly just conjecture.
 

MasterBates

Well-Known Member
In the E-2 (and I believe C-2, but Kmac or Hoov can correct me if wrong) flaps come in 0-10-20-30.

10 is used for shore takeoff, boat takeoff, and on station endurance. 10 degrees gives the biggest increase to lift, without a lot of drag, and is the preferred setting for flying around single engine. 20 flaps is a lot of induced drag, and is used for normal landing on land and boat. 30 flaps is almost never used, unless they can't get winds over deck to get the closure speed under 97 knots, which is the limit for the arresting hook, at least in the C model.

Another reason 30 is seldom used, is that on speed may be below Vmc at 30 flaps in the E, and I think CODs can get there if light at 20 flaps. (empty Hawkeyes are noticeably heavier than a COD)
 

kmac

FLIP Maker
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
So taking what MB has just stated, I'll take a stab at a few other things. First off, the C-2 does not have a Vmc with 0 or 10 flaps. Vmc for 20 or 30 flaps is 100 KIAS. Our approach speed gets close to 100 KIAS when lightweight with 20 flaps or less than that with 30 flaps. Having said that, 20 degree flaps gives us the best wave off capability. This is especially true for single engine wave offs. That's why we fly approaches/landings at 20 degree flaps. Our optimum VSI for single engine is with 10 degree flaps, so typically on a wave off we will get our climb going and then set 10 flaps.

Now, for cat shots we can go with 10 or 20 degree flaps. 10 is the norm and so our end speeds are calculated with 10 flaps (as confirmed by the shooter). If we go single engine then at least we are already in the right configuration for the flaps. With a soft cat though it makes a lot of sense to get as much lift as possible since the end speed is out of our hands... Therefore the flaps come down. The same is true for a lot of guys that are planning on ditching off the end... If you're coming down anyway, then you might as well get as much last second lift as possible.
 

MasterBates

Well-Known Member
The E-2C has a Vmc of 103 KIAS, which, like Kmac alluded to, you will stall before seeing at 10 or 0 flap.

The rest of it is more or less the same for the E-2. You can get more of an instant climb rate at 10 flap if you are level, but if you are at the boat or on an ILS, the extra VSI for the much faster ground speed more than negates that, so it's a bit counterintuitive, but yes, you have better waveoff at 20 flap, if you are established on a glideslope.

Coming into Norfolk on a long visual while single engine, I leave the plane at 10 flaps until I start the final descent and landing is assured. Technique only.

One of the best RAG IPs at 12o when I was a CAT-2 (Deuce) let me play around with all this stuff on my NATOPS Check after we were done, but needed to burn some hours.
 

MasterBates

Well-Known Member
Also, one more thing with Vmc.. When you go below it, you don't depart controlled flight instantly, you just can't maintain directional control, and you will start turning into the dead engine.

Far too many CAPCs I know (and most of the NFOs) assume that once you hit 102, you are going to instantly depart, roll on your back, and die. Also, if you don't need 4600/5100 HP to maintain level flight, you can throttle back and go slower than the Vmc, as your new Vmc is less than the official one, because the 100/103 KIAS is only valid at a given set of condition.

My NATOPS is buried in a box in the man cave, but I believe it was defined as critical engine failed and feathered, maximum power on the operating engine, level unaccelerated flight with a 2-3 bank into the operative engine.
 

scoolbubba

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
Snap the motor back aggressively, roll back into the good engine and regain directional control, and smoothly feed in power and rudder. VMCa? Psshhhh get outta here!

...Just gotta make sure you won't power off stall at your current speed.
 
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