The Great Universal Health Care Debate w/Poll (note: it just passed both houses)

[HH-60H]

(2. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE learn how to NOT crux all of you arguments on fear of Communism;

The way you seem to present things, Catholocism .... Catholocism ......

Crux is a noun.

Catholicism

 

[Harrier Dude]

I would say that the cost is my main beef. We are at a point where healthcare is simply unaffordable for anything more than an occassional doctor's visit if paid out of pocket. As I said previously, in an ideal world I would be able to go to the doc and get the care I need by just paying him, not a middle man who takes his cut first. I'm not saying that surgeory should cost $10, but when you're getting bills of over $100k for care, something is wrong.

You can pay cash to any doctor that you want to. This assumes that you can afford it. Some people can, depending on their income, spending, and health needs.

Many factors contribute to expensive health care. ONE of them (and a major one at that) is the costs incurred by people who cannot afford to pay, and therefore don't. The hospitals and insurance companies soak the rest of us to make up for their losses. Come to Yuma and sit in our hospital waiting room for awhile. You'll see what I mean. It's the same concept that forces us all to pay a little more for products to make up for theft. Businesses always pass on their losses to the customer.

Now, it would take to iron out a plan where we can streamline medical costs in order to reduce them. That, in itself, is a fantasy. But if I can reduce the cost of MY healthcare by a significant margin while keeping the benefits constant, and the cost is that I'm required to pay into it and 4.7% of the population MIGHT freeload off me, then I'd be willing to make that trade.

If you actually think that our government is the salvation that will provide a "a committe of intelligent, open-minded, reasonable individuals ", then you need to work around our government a little more. Fantasy, indeed.

You mention "4.7%". Is that a reference to the unemployment rate? If so, then you are recognizing a very small part of the "healthcare freeloaders" out there. Many more people, while employed, do NOT get medical insurance. That's either by direct choice (like you at the moment), or by the unintended consequences of other choices they have made (education level, job selection, etc.). It does not include illegal aliens either (which I'm sure would somehow be covered in any inclusive "right to healthcare" that would come to pass).

Actually, my example is more realistic than yours. Americans pay the highest % of earnings toward healthcare, yet we rank #37 among industrialized nations in healthcare. Simply put: we are not enjoying more benefits by paying more money; we're just paying more money to support our current shitty system.

Oh, really. What is this "current shitty system" you speak of? Medicare? Tricare? The entire health insurance industry? We have plenty of health care choices here in this country. It's up to you to decide where that fits in your financial priorities.

Oh, yeah.....and 73% of all statistics are made up.

 

[Flash]

Ever herd of the Berlin Wall?! Notice that I said, "are (or on the road to being) communist". If you tell me that Canada, the UK, France, Japan, Australia, and the U.S. are not slowly creeping toward communism then you are blind. If you say that UHC is not a part of socialism/communism then you are a fool, because by definition UHC is a socialist program.

You need to step outside your house and take a walk in the real world once in a blue moon there little guy.

The US, Canada, the UK, Germany (the universal health care part was on both sides of the Wall, and I think I have heard of that 'wall', the communist and democratic sides) and the rest of those countries are not slowly becoming communist by any stretch of the imagination.

As for being a blind fool, I guess I will have to live with some high schooler thinking that. I wonder how I will ever survive.......

 

[Spekkio]

You can pay cash to any doctor that you want to. This assumes that you can afford it. Some people can, depending on their income, spending, and health needs.

That's the issue -- almost nobody can. Do you believe that healthcare is a privilege only to be enjoyed by the top 1% of society?

Many factors contribute to expensive health care. ONE of them (and a major one at that) is the costs incurred by people who cannot afford to pay, and therefore don't. The hospitals and insurance companies soak the rest of us to make up for their losses. Come to Yuma and sit in our hospital waiting room for awhile. You'll see what I mean. It's the same concept that forces us all to pay a little more for products to make up for theft. Businesses always pass on their losses to the customer.

I don't need to come to Yuma; I've seen what an inner city ER can be like. I've also witnessed a surgeon who makes over $500,000 per year bitch and moan that he has to do a procedure for a patient using an HMO for about half his going rate because it's the law. I'm not saying that docs don't deserve to be compensated, but every once in a while you have to eat the losses (which really wouldn't be a loss -- he was still being paid for it, after all). You could also argue that that's part of the Hippocratic Oath.

You mention "4.7%". Is that a reference to the unemployment rate? If so, then you are recognizing a very small part of the "healthcare freeloaders" out there. Many more people, while employed, do NOT get medical insurance. That's either by direct choice (like you at the moment), or by the unintended consequences of other choices they have made (education level, job selection, etc.). It does not include illegal aliens either (which I'm sure would somehow be covered in any inclusive "right to healthcare" that would come to pass).

Under a single-payer system, payment would be a mandatory deduction from your paycheck. Therefore, only 4.7% of the population wouldn't be paying.

Oh, really. What is this "current shitty system" you speak of? Medicare? Tricare? The entire health insurance industry? We have plenty of health care choices here in this country. It's up to you to decide where that fits in your financial priorities.

The whole thing, mostly.

Oh, yeah.....and 73% of all statistics are made up.

The link I provided a couple pages ago has the source to my quoted statistics.

 

[Flash]

A close friend had her baby operated on when he was 12 hours old. The bill was in the hundreds of thousands. They arranged financing with the physicians and the hospital directly. Now, it's going to take a while and they are working class folks, but it's working out.
The problem is costs are so inflated because of the entrenched bureaucracy, malpractice insurance, etc, that it is difficult to know just how much a procedure really costs.
I don't pretend that health care isn't expensive and wouldn't be under certain situations in a pay-as-you-go system.
But what you advocate is shifting the burden to others.

Catastrophic health care can run into the millions of dollars, not just a few hundred thousand. This includes some of the sickest premature infants, some of the best trauma care and some fo the most intensive rehabilitative care. And it is not malpractice suits, lawyers, bureaucracy, regulations or the government that costs the millions of dollars. It is the technology, medicine and very skilled manpower that makes up the vast majority of the money. The specialized equipment for a Level I Trauma Center and a Neonatal ICU along with the highly specialized professionalized people that staff those facilities cost a mint.

I have no idea how you can expect anyone, except for the very rich, to afford a $10 million medical bill. I think it is incredibly naive to think that pay as you go can work for medical care.

 

[Son of a Grunt]

I apologize for my hotheadedness, in that it reduces the quality of the thread as a whole.

 

[Herc_Dude]

Do you believe that healthcare is a privilege only to be enjoyed by the top 1% of society?

This "top 1%" thing is something that really "grinds my gears" (thought I would throw a Peter quote out to lighten the mood in here). But I digress...

There are people out there with great healthcare now who fall well below the top 1% cutoff ... http://www.ntu.org/main/page.php?PageID=6

In the same breath, the bottom of the top 1% make a great chunk, don't get me wrong, but it's not that "elite" of a group. They area already paying the bill for 40% of everyone else, what else do you want?

 

[Spekkio]

Eh, that's not really what I meant. I was referring for paying out-of-pocket for the healthcare, but I can see how my post was vague and can be easily taken out of context. I'm well aware that most Americans are insured and would be covered for such expensive procedures. I'm also well aware of the inequities of our income tax system, and that it actually hoses the wealthy more than the poor.

The flipside of those statistics, though, is that your top 10% are generally finding ways to put their money in other forms of capital that are non-taxable. A company president reporting a salary of $200,000 a year actually makes much more than that.

 

[eddie]

Crux is a noun.

Catholicism

Thanks.

Yeah, I'm trying to figure out what word I wanted to use there...

Spelling is also important.

 

[eddie]

I apologize for my hotheadedness, in that it reduces the quality of the thread as a whole.

Meh, I was an asshole too.

It's the internet; we'll all be here tomorrow.

Merry Christmas.

 

[eddie]

The UN?

I fear the false sense of security it gives to so many people in the "reality" or "enforceability" of international law.

I have never feared it because I don't take it seriously. Maybe I should?

 

[Birdman]

And one more thing, I just want to say this even though it may be against my best interests but without lawyers, the perimeter of societal expectations and obligations would never have been set. The legal profession is a reflection of the society in which we serve. :bigmouth_


:watching2

The arguments that you have been making, isn't it just trying to legislate morality?

 

[Herc_Dude]

The flipside of those statistics, though, is that your top 10% are generally finding ways to put their money in other forms of capital that are non-taxable. A company president reporting a salary of $200,000 a year actually makes much more than that.

See, I tend to think thats the exception far more than the rule. Now working your money to save some on taxes - yes, everyone does that, most legally.

If someone breaks the law, they should be punished to the fullest extent of the law, especially when they are bending over their investors illegally to make their millions. If they are legit in their profits, God bless em. I group your referencing CEOs, company presidents, etc in the same group as the "top 1%" comments. Certain groups who tend to have similar opinions as yourself use these "trigger words" to get people all worked up over nothing. It's their tax dollars that fund the national healthcare that allows anybody to walk into any emergency room in the country and have any immediate injuries stabilized as well as getting an evaluation by medical staff. These are the same tax dollars that are getting sucked from other areas where they could actually benefit other tax paying citizens thanks to the abuse of this "free" medical care.

Respectfully disagree - I put this into the abortion, religion and politics category - it would take damn near an act of God for any of us to convince the other to change their mind. However, the entertainment (and educational) value is great. Keep it up.

 

[Spekkio]

I am not against people making money, nor am I against business. I'm actually a big supporter of the Fair Tax because I believe people should keep all the money they earn and spend it or invest it however they choose. While you can't deny that a lot of wealthy people use a lot of loopholes and tax writeoffs that they shouldn't in order to keep their income on paper low, I don't blame them when Uncle Sam is trying to claim 50% of their earnings. I also recognize that, with few exceptions, wealthy people work hard for their money and deserve every penny. Again, my comment was simply stating that out-of-pocket healthcare is simply unaffordable to almost anyone.

However, the moral question here really is: Do you believe that healthcare is a business? Do you believe our health is a commodity to be bought and sold, and thus profited on?

I don't, particularly because most people view their health as invaluable. That gives the business owners the ability to charge anything they want, and people will pay. If you do, then we just disagree on a fundamental level, and like you said, only an act of God would change our minds.

 

[phrogpilot73]

Americans pay the highest % of earnings toward healthcare, yet we rank #37 among industrialized nations in healthcare. Simply put: we are not enjoying more benefits by paying more money; we're just paying more money to support our current healthcare-as-a-business model where people are making a ton of money off us.

I would argue that we pay the highest, not only because of the money making, but because of research. Do a quick google and find out how many medical breakthroughs are coming out of the US and not other countries. Somebody's got to pay for the research, and that's why health care costs so much.