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The downside of women serving alongside men in fighting ships, subs, squadrons, etc.

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
.... No matter how much you type in bold... ;)
Right is still RIGHT, and wrong is still WRONG ... no matter HOW much YOU try to PC it ...

... and I type how I type ... and I LIKE how I type, 'cause it's kinda like I talk (so I've been told) ... if someone does not 'like it' ... then I suggest the solution is --- move along; nothing to look at here ... :)

officerBarbrady.gif
 

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
.....Because some lawyer will invariably ... equate it ....

See ... here's another example of what you boys/girls need TO GET STRAIGHT prior to going any further in your military service:

WARFIGHTING is NOT a 'legal exercise' ... it's all about KILLING people who are our enemies , who probably deserve it, and who would most certainly kill YOU in a heartbeat if given the opportunity ...

Fuck the lawyers. When have they ever won a war???
 

CalamityJean

I know which way the wind shines!
... is 'wrong'...just wrong...

God knows I don't want to step on your toes...but I might.

Holy shit, there are plenty of roles women play and play well in combat/deployable units. As an IWO-to-be do you think my lack of a large sweaty nutsack will impare my brain to operate a computer? Type up a brief?

I do agree that the standards women are required to live up to are quite lax physically, but last time I checked, the majority of the Navy isn't made up of SEAL teams. And I've seen quite a few large assed men waddling about Norfolk as well.

Say women weren't allowed to be in combat units or deploy on ship. And we had another avenue we had to go down to advance. Wouldn't that be a greater double standard? That the male populace would bitch about endlessly?

This argument has been made a thousand times already. There are people of both sexes who suck at their jobs/life and are completely unmotivated. I'm not a feminist, but I do ask if I can kick a guys ass (mentally or physically), to have his spot on the team. I couldn't give a shit about integration for integrations sake but don't not give me a shot just because I look hot in a pair of heels.
 

desertoasis

Something witty.
None
Contributor
It's not about warfighting being a 'legal exercise' or not (which is surely ain't), it's the fact that we, even though we are soldiers/sailors/Marines and are responsible for bringing the righteous hand of God down on our enemies, remain employees of the federal government, and the military as a whole is still an arm of the government, and is therefore bound to follow the laws set before us, just the same as everyone else. Now don't get me wrong, I'm all for eating my morning cereal out of the skulls of dead terrorists just as much as the next guy, but I'm not about to violate the legislated-and-judicially-reviewed laws of my country or dishonor the Constitution I'm sworn to defend.

We are still beholden to our civilian leaders (SECNAV, SECDEF, all the way up to the President), and their laws are absolutely our laws too. Granted, the UCMJ deals with the differences between the military and civilian worlds, but the basic rules are the same; don't murder people, don't screw someone else's wife, don't steal things, don't help the enemy, etc. There's something important that needs to be said though, because this debate will continue for as long as there is a separate military and civilian sector; The military is not, and should never be, an instrument of social change, no matter what the voting public thinks, but we can't fall so far behind the rest of the nation in terms of social policy that we are going against the public's opinion, or we'll lose their support. Loss of public support = no money to blow stuff up and kill people.
 

bunk22

Super *********
pilot
Super Moderator
That right there is the problem of the American military. We have not distinguished moral failure and operational failures. Why should the CO be the fall man for grown men and women who has made the decision to disobey an order. Do we fire the CO and his senior enlisted adviser because people are taking illicit drugs? So why do we do it when it comes to sexual relationships.

We have this notion that everyone should be of high moral fiber when it is not possible. We are a reflection of our society in some sense and the society is sexually active more than ever before. Also, people are spending the equivalent of years away from their spouses or significant other which is definitely not healthy for the relationships. Even the so called leadership is not immune to this. So whose fault is it?

Life's a bitch. Damned if you do damned if you don't.
 

bunk22

Super *********
pilot
Super Moderator
God knows I don't want to step on your toes...but I might.

Holy shit, there are plenty of roles women play and play well in combat/deployable units. As an IWO-to-be do you think my lack of a large sweaty nutsack will impare my brain to operate a computer? Type up a brief?

I do agree that the standards women are required to live up to are quite lax physically, but last time I checked, the majority of the Navy isn't made up of SEAL teams. And I've seen quite a few large assed men waddling about Norfolk as well.

Say women weren't allowed to be in combat units or deploy on ship. And we had another avenue we had to go down to advance. Wouldn't that be a greater double standard? That the male populace would bitch about endlessly?

This argument has been made a thousand times already. There are people of both sexes who suck at their jobs/life and are completely unmotivated. I'm not a feminist, but I do ask if I can kick a guys ass (mentally or physically), to have his spot on the team. I couldn't give a shit about integration for integrations sake but don't not give me a shot just because I look hot in a pair of heels.

Oh, you're going to step on the old man's toes :D Remember, A4's is old school and set in his ways. Not saying he's wrong or right or that you're wrong or right. Opinions, you know?!
 

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
Say women weren't allowed to be in combat units or deploy on ship. And we had another avenue we had to go down to advance. Wouldn't that be a greater double standard? That the male populace would bitch about endlessly?
To go back to the "failure of leadership" line...

So AW3 and AW2 are banging boots underway... we'll say it's failure of leadership and all that jazz. Now there's a change of command, and a shit-hot CO takes command. Suddenly these two sailors are going to stop screwing? I highly doubt it.
 

CalamityJean

I know which way the wind shines!
Oh, you're going to step on the old man's toes :D Remember, A4's is old school and set in his ways. Not saying he's wrong or right or that you're wrong or right. Opinions, you know?!

I was certainly taught to respect my elders ;)...but I just had to be that cold wet blanket all over his woman hating comments. Now I sit & wait for the inevitable negative repping to hit me...
 

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
I was certainly taught to respect my elders ;)...but I just had to be that cold wet blanket all over his woman hating comments. Now I sit & wait for the inevitable negative repping to hit me...
Woman hating ... ??? ARE YOU SHITTING ME ... ??? Me 'hate' women ... hardly (no pun) ... as I love women. You obviously don't 'know me'.

Love women??? I always have, I usually will ... :)

How could I 'hate' women and yet be married to this USA-mermaid ???

mermaid4b.jpg


p.s. .... I don't give 'neg rep' for disagreeing w/ me ... just for being stupid and/or annoying ...
 

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
I don't think A4's hates women...I think A4's acknowledges that putting men and women in close proximity for long periods of time leads to sexual relations.

Haven't all you guys been to college? Maybe I'm unique in this, but most of the hookups I experienced and witnessed were between people living in the same dorm building.
 

ACowboyinTexas

Armed and Dangerous
pilot
Contributor
It is possible to love and respect women and still believe that men only should comprise fighting units (very likely out of love and respect for women). As one who transitioned from the "before" to the "after" I'm going to have to side with A4s on this one - big surprise. Now, do I think the genie can be put back in the bottle? No. So it's either go along or get out, until or unless you are in a position to change it.
Now, anyone who is surprised at "love in the voids" is a naive fool. Top brass either need to accept the loss to combat efficiency the relationships cause, or enact draconian measures to try and stop it. But making it legal in some instances and illegal the second two star-crossed lovers cross the brow just isn't going to be very successful.
 

Clux4

Banned
Because ultimately, moral failure, whether it is a lack of honesty or integrity, or not following fraternization regulations, leads to operational failures.

How do our NATO allies handle these issues. Can anyone with first hand exchange experience shed some light. From the little we can gather from the poster that was on the vessel, they seem to have accomplished their mission.
It seems as if this is a self imposed high moral culture that we(US military) have held ourselves to; one in which we cannot always maintain and preserve. The problem ain't the women, and the leadership cannot be held solely for individual short-comings.


A4's
Relegating women to just one ship does not solve the problem. Are we also going to keep women to just one FOB when have to deploy to forward bases.
 

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
...A4's
Relegating women to just one ship does not solve the problem. Are we also going to keep women to just one FOB when have to deploy to forward bases.

As usual, you succeed in missing the finer points ... you're not a woman, are you ??? The all-female ship was offered somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but still ... it WOULD prove/disprove the underlying hypothesis, yea-as ???

The early 'rationale' for women in formerly all-male combat/deployable units was so the women could 'compete' w/ men for promotion and command 'on an equal basis' ... presumeably as being WAC's, WAVE's, WAF's, Doctors and nurses wasn't gettin' it done for the little sailor/soldier wannabes of the distaff side ...

Soooooooooooooo ... after Tailhook '91 and w/ the aggressive assistance and support of Patsy Schroeder, Patty Murray (now, what IS it w/ the name 'Patricia'???) and many other ugly, angry, 'unappreciated when they were younger' women of their ilk = presto: we now are saddled w/ the relative +'s and proven -'s of sustaining women in what were heretofore all-male combat units.


And there ain't many +'s to be had ...

Example: my daughter is smart, beautiful, a female STUD, and a marathoner -- i.e., she's smart AND a jock. I would have been very pleased had she chosen a career in the Navy instead of the biotech research field. But COMBAT ??? I would NEVER want her to have to spend a minute in combat. Shit, I DON'T WANT TO BE IN COMBAT !!!

Any man who would push 'their women' (for lack of a better word) into combat is a miserable fuck and a coward.
 

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
A4's
Relegating women to just one ship does not solve the problem.
Here's my take: If men and women working together having relations is a "problem," then you need to re-think the entire situation.

No private organization that I've worked for prior to the Navy has viewed this as a "problem." The fact that the Navy does is the "problem," and the only way to rectify it for good is to separate men and women entirely. And if it sexual relations really is a problem for fighting units re: morale, effectiveness, discipline, etc. (I'm not qualified to say so either way), then the only realistic solution that will work will be to keep them separate.

Because ending the career of two shit-hot PO2 due to having a relationship with someone he/she spends most of his/her time with is not a "solution."

But what do I know, I just need to finish this cup o' kool-aid.
 
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